Wikipedia “Eunuch”

[Uncle Flo]

In my opinion, no. Being sterile is a component of being a eunuch, not a conclusive sign. --FLO--

[Jesus]

Originally Posted by Solaris

There is a very large population of males throughout the world, who have not undergone castration, but who are unable to have children because they have undergone a vasectomy. Would they, by any stretch of the imagination, be considered to be eunuchs?

While Gary Taylor, the author of Castration: An Abbreviated History of Western Manhood, might agree that vasectomy equals castration, I doubt that you could find many others who would. During the period when the Indian government was pushing sterilization clinics across the country, they were at great pains to make clear that vasectomy leaves the testicles intact and producing testosterone. Someone who has had a vasectomy has not been castrated and is not a eunuch.

The most common definition of eunuch is a natal male whose testicles have been removed, destroyed, or are non functional. It is the removal or destruction of the testicles that is termed “castration.” This term is used for all animal species, including humans.

There are various extensions and perversions of the term that you can find in the literature. Sigmund Freud, for his “castration complex,” focused almost exclusively on the penis, and left the testicles out of his discussion. “Castration” can also be used metaphorically to describe the loss or removal of power from someone, just as Germaine Greer used “Female Eunuch” to refer to the powerlessness of women.

There are also a few Female-to-Male individuals who argue that, while they now present as male, they have no testicles, hence must be eunuchs. They would NOT, however, argue that they had been castrated as they never had testicles to remove or destroy.

[Spadone_<3]

Eunuchs castrated before puberty were also valued and trained in several cultures for their exceptional voices, which retained a childlike and other-worldly flexibility and treble pitch. Such eunuchs were known as castrati. . . .

The broad sense of the term "eunuch" is reflected in the compendium of Roman law created by Justinian I in the sixth century, known as the Digest or Pandects. That text distinguishes between two types of "eunuchs"—spadones (a general term denoting "one who has no generative power, an impotent person, whether by nature or by castration,"[13] and castrati (castrated males, physically incapable of procreation). Spadones are eligible to marry women, institute posthumous heirs, and adopt children (Institutions of Justinian, 1.11.9), unless they are castrati.

Source: New World Encylopedia,

So Roman Law had two kinds of Eunuch, castrati, made so to sing at a young age & spadone (all else).

Here's the way it's rewritten in Wikipedia:

Similarly, according to very late Roman law, as compiled by Justinian I in the sixth century Digest known as the Pandects, castrated men (castrati) were not permitted to marry women (D 23.3.39.1), institute posthumous heirs (D 28.2.6), or adopt children (Institutions of Justinian 1.11.9)[4]; however, as with Judaism, all other spadones had these rights.

Footnote 3 in Wikipedia is interesting:

Tertullian, On Monogamy, 3: “...He stands before you, if you are willing to copy him, as a voluntary spado (eunuch) in the flesh.” And elsewhere: "The Lord Himself opened the kingdom of heaven to eunuchs and He Himself lived as a eunuch. The apostle [Paul] also, following His example, made himself a eunuch..."

I dunno know what to make of being called a spado . . . . New Testament says "Eunuch."

There were three different types of eunuch identifiable by the three different methods of castration. The slaves whose penis and testes had both been severed were called castrati by the Romans and sandali or es-sendelle by the Arabs. Spadones was the word used to describe those eunuchs whose testicles had been literally torn from their bodies, but not cut off. By far the most common method of emasculation was to detach the testicles by a single cut, and these eunuchs, who were called thlibias or semivir, retained their penis.

Source: COLIN BLAKEMORE and SHELIA JENNETT. "eunuchs." The Oxford Companion to the Body. Oxford University Press. 2001. Encyclopedia.com. 24 Oct. 2009

In Original Bible texts ";eunuch"; is described as saris (Old Testament, Hebrew) or eunouchos (New Testament, Greek). However, both words could also mean ";official"; or ";commander";. The 38 original Bible references to saris and 2 references to eunouchos were studied in order to determine their meaning in context. In the Septuagint saris was translated as eunouchos, except for Genesis 37:36 and Isaiah 39:7 where spadon was used;

Source: (Acta Theologica: 2002 22(2): 114-125)

Genesis 37:36 with commentary:

And the Midianites sold him into Egypt unto Potiphar, an {l} officer of Pharaoh's, and captain of the guard.

(l) Or eunuch, which does not always signify a man that is gelded, but also someone that is in some high position.

Isaiah 39:7 with commentary:

And of thy sons that shall issue from thee, which thou shalt beget, shall they take away; and they shall be {f} eunuchs in the palace of the king of Babylon.

(f) That is, officers and servants.

So spadon = officer, i.e., a Court Official.

Wikipedia should reverse what they split. The article "Eunuch (Court Official)" = Spadon.

[Spadone_<3]

The person who split the article wrote this HERE in response to "Mairi":

What's your source for moving this to spadone from eunuch? "Spadone" doesn't appear to generate any relevant google results, nor appear in most dictionaries. Whereas "eunuch" is a common word, and used in the sources for that article. --Mairi (talk) 18:41, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

You'll find it in most historic academic writings. Remember, google isn't a reliable source for notability. But if you really want to read google results, see [4]. Highlights from that google search include:

"The free dictionary" says "SPADONES, civil law. Those who, on account of their temperament, or some accident they have suffered, are unable to procreate. Inst. 1, 11, 9; Dig. 1, 7, 2, 1; and vide Impotence.".
[5] websters dictionary appears to have the same definition
[6] this academic work (social science) about male impotence and canon law
[7] another book, about Papal decisions
[8] a Middle English dictionary, bizarrely, under 'spado' (middle english - giving 'spadone' as the etymology)
[9] a commentary about Isaiah
[10] a digitised out-of-copyright book about medicine
[11] this Jewish Encyclopedia article

Its a bit like the word "cherub". Technically it is the singular of Cherubim, and refers to a creature rather like a Shedu. But in recent times people have bizarrely confused it with "putti", which is basically a baby with wings.

You have
(a) people holding a specific official position, and
(b) people who cannot or will not procreate
and therefore

just (a)
(a) and (b)
just (b)

(a) are Eunuchs (literally translating as 'bed-chamber attendants'), (b) are Spadones

people who are castrated in modern times are not usually castrated for the purpose of an official position; in other words, they are not (a)

similarly there were bed-chamber attendants who were not castrated - who were not (b)

laws tend to apply to (b) not (a)
(a) and (b) overlap heavily, but they are not the same thing
Newman Luke (talk) 19:23, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Ok. I'm still skeptical about it being a better name for the article, given that half of those are historical texts (and some use "eunuchs and spadones"). Also, almost all the sources in the article use "eunuch", not "spadone", and they're not about the court officials. -Mairi (talk) 19:43, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately its the same with most people talking about pictures like these - [12] - as cherubs, when in fact the whole of the first page there are actually putti. These - [13] [14] [15] [16] - are cherubs.

Popular perception is not the same as accurate. Most people think you have to risk a lot to gain a lot, but professional financial traders on foreign exchange risk no more than just 1%, and they rake in millions.

But the point is not that its a "better name for the article" but that there should be two articles - Spadone about the category of non-procreative men, and Eunuch about the court official. Newman Luke (talk) 20:10, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Page 102 HERE gives a definition of Spado as castrated.

Old men would also be considered Spado under Newman Luke's definition.

Confused? So am I . . . more later.

[kennath7]

My question on the word spadone
I just watched a movie where it sounds as if they are using the word
To the main character I could not tell because they said it so fast
So for those of you who have seen gladiator , is the word spadone what they are calling him

[Spadone_<3]

"Spadone" is the name of the long-swords Gladiators use. Do U think they were trying to insult the person? Strange that they would use such an archaic word and not call him a eunuch.

Two ppl have responded HERE & thus:

No, it's more like an article about apples (Eunuchs) & discussing different kinds of apples (castrati, court officials, spadon). If U want to add a paragraph about the historical (archaic), Latin definition of Spadon under Roman Law in this article, okay but you were wrong to split the articles without discussion first and, the article about Spadones does a poor job of documenting the definition. Even impotent men could be Spadon. Not even sure your Latin grammar is correct. BTW, there was no "confusion," until you split the articles! So, is Tom DeLay a eunuch (Court Official)?

There were three different types of eunuch identifiable by the three different methods of castration. The slaves whose penis and testes had both been severed were called castrati by the Romans and sandali or es-sendelle by the Arabs. Spadones was the word used to describe those eunuchs whose testicles had been literally torn from their bodies, but not cut off. By far the most common method of emasculation was to detach the testicles by a single cut, and these eunuchs, who were called thlibias or semivir, retained their penis. Source: COLIN BLAKEMORE and SHELIA JENNETT. "eunuchs." The Oxford Companion to the Body. Oxford University Press. 2001.

In Original Bible texts ";eunuch"; is described as saris (Old Testament, Hebrew) or eunouchos (New Testament, Greek). However, both words could also mean ";official"; or ";commander";. The 38 original Bible references to saris and 2 references to eunouchos were studied in order to determine their meaning in context. In the Septuagint saris was translated as eunouchos, except for Genesis 37:36 and Isaiah 39:7 where spadon was used, Source: (Acta Theologica: 2002 22(2): 114-125)

Page 102 HERE gives a definition of Spado as castrated.

26 October 2009 (UTC)This appears to be an idiosyncratic attempt by an individual pursuing his private agenda. The goal of a proper encyclopedia, such as Wikipedia, is to survey and summarize the existing data, not to create an entirely new vision.

While I have a great many problems with this strange division of the “Eunuch” article into two parts, I will restrict myself to just a few of them. Enough, I hope, to get this reversed.

First of all, while “spadone” may be occasionally used in English language text as if it were an English word, it it most commonly used as a Latin word and glossed as “eunuch” in English. It is rare enough that it does not even occur in the 20 volume Oxford English Dictionary. Even if it were used correctly, it would seem very strange to use such a rare term as an article title in any English language encyclopedia.

Second, changing “eunuch” to “spadone” has perverted existing scholarship. For example, the author has changed “Male-to-Eunuch” gender dysphoria to “Male-to-Spadone” in a paragraph which has citations to three published articles in refereed medical journals which describe it as Male-to-Eunuch. Presentations titled, “The Development of Standards of Care for Individuals with a Male-to-Eunuch Gender Identity Disorder” were made at the 2009 meetings of both the World Professional Association for Transgender Health and the World Association for Sexual Health. A version of it has been submitted for publication to the International Journal of Transgenderism.

“Male-to-Eunuch” is likely to be the useage in the next edition of the Harry Benjamin Standards. The document working its way up through the layers of committees toward the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 5th edition, specifies “Male-to-Eunuch,” not “Male-to-Spadone.”

Third, it seems to make little sense to have a division that puts provincial governors together with lowly harem attendants in one category and to lump military generals, religious fanatics, and singers in another. The division seems highly arbitrary and irrational.

It would be far better to recombine the articles and then to logically discuss differences within the category.

If nothing happens in a week or so, I'll notify some administrators HERE .

[Jesus]

The Wikipedia article has been restored and repaired. I'd like to thank Spadone_<3 for his efforts on this. Sometimes rationality prevails.

[dev]

Maybe if there was a sliding scale on eunuchism then 10 would equal full male or female. Then 9 would equal chemical after maturation and vascectomy would be and 8. Then hysterectomy or castration post maturation would be equal to 7. Full non-maturation would be a 1 (most unlikely). Maybe 6 and 5 would be adolescent and 2,3 and 4 would be pre-adolescent or something like that. I don't know. This obviously isn't quite right but it could be made to work.