Hormone Replacement Therapy - Testesterone vs Estrogen

[EricaAnn]

Originally Posted by Danielle

Hi,

My question is this: Does Estrogen/Premarin provide the necessary health benefits post castration as does low dosage Testosterone? Is the real story here perhaps that a human being must have some level of either Testosterone or Estrogen in order to enjoy good mental and/or physical health?

Put another way, does a genetic male who has been castrated need Testosterone if he is taking Estrogen? (I have a theory on this, but I do not want to bias the group with a simple theory.)

Does anybody have any theories or knowledge of this? Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Danielle

Hi Danielle,

In response to your questions, I have the following to offer.

Since you are transsexual you won't need real amounts of testosterone in your system after castration. Estrogen would be the preferred hormone for people like us. My endocrinologist, who has a great deal of experience treating transsexuals and hormone therapy wants my estrogen level somewhere between 400 and 450. I'm currently on a dose of 0.3 cc's of injectable estrogen weekly which has maintained my level right around 425-430. I also take a daily dose of 200 Mg's of oral Progesterone.

Contrary to what your doctor has told you, there has been a great deal of medical research done on transsexuals and hormone replacement therapy and their effects upon us.

Once your testosterone levels have been reduced substantially by castration, you will see a big difference in the way that the estrogen affects you both mentally and physically. Your breast development will increase greatly as well as the development of the subdurial fat layer under your skin which soften your skin. You will also begin to see the effects of fat transfer in your body and will begin to develop hips and what we girls call a "mother's pouch" which is a little tummy below your naval. The final effects will be an increase in your hair density, lessening of your general body hair and the softening of your facial features.

Please make certain that your doctor is carefully monitoring your hormone levels through regular blood test, which are the most accurate method of determining your body's response to the hormones.

I wish you all the best of luck. Should you have any questions that I can help with, please feel free to PM me.

[Danielle]

Quoting Evail:

"220 of what? You see, figure without measurement units is quite meaningless."

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Of course, this is true. I think that the standard unit is picogram per millileter as I recall. I think all the major testing companies use the same units, but I do remember that I got slightly different results between Quest and Labcorp.

---------------------

Quoting Evali again:

"You seem to be missinformed. There are doctors who specialize in treating TS and IS people, though there are not many of them (the specialized ones). There are conferences about this, where specialists discuss and share their knowledge, there are treatment standards and guidelines. Every bigger country has at least a few medical centers where things can be done, and where research is performed. I know that quite a lot of TS people complain that the doctors are too rigid and concervative in their thinking, but this is not the reason to say that there are no knowledge about this in the medical community."

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Yes, I know that there are doctors spread throughout the US who do treat GD/TS/IS people. However, I did spend a full day calling every endochronologist in the phone book looking for another doctor to handle my case who might be better than the one that I presently use. The all told me that they do not deal with these conditions. And that is all that there was to that.

So, I just stick with the one guy (however ill informed that he may be {or pretend to be}) who is willing to provide the blood tests and the prescription for Premarin.


Danielle

[Danielle]

Quoting Intersexed:

"Though, after 10 years on estrogen, I'd be surprised if you weren't permanently chemically castrated by now. But I am not a doctor."

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The numbers show that my T level is in the low range for a male, but not out of range as one would expect of a castrated male (roughly 220 {pG/mL} on the Labcorp scale). Anecdotally, I also observer that I still have a pretty hearty labido, so the T is still there doing its (unwanted) thing.

Danielle

[Danielle]

Quoting Erica Ann:

Once your testosterone levels have been reduced substantially by castration, you will see a big difference in the way that the estrogen affects you both mentally and physically. Your breast development will increase greatly as well as the development of the subdurial fat layer under your skin which soften your skin. You will also begin to see the effects of fat transfer in your body and will begin to develop hips and what we girls call a "mother's pouch" which is a little tummy below your naval. The final effects will be an increase in your hair density, lessening of your general body hair and the softening of your facial features.

-------------

Hi Erica,

Most of those things that you mentioned, I have already had occur via the Premaring for 10 years of steady use. The only thing that I have not experienced that I desire is a reduction of my body hair and a reduction in labido. I have had all of my beard removed via Electrolysis (expensive and time consuming and sometimes quite painful).

Danielle

[Danielle]

Hi all again,

I appreciatete everyones council and advice here. It is great that there are people out there who have experience and first hand knowledge of this.

One thing that I forgot to mention is that I am performing castration by ethyl alcohol into the testes (drinking alcohol from a liquor store). Initially, I used 2 mL of 80 proof Vodka per teste every two days. I did that for 5 cycles and then switched to 1 mL of 190 proof per teste.

It seems to be going ok as I am taking some precautions with its administration. Initially, the pain was about a 6 on a 10 scale. Now, it is down to a 2.

Danielle

ps - my Endo refused to prescribe Depo Provera or anything like that for me. Just Premarin. He does not know enough to feel comfortable with that combination. If I were him and did not know, I would also refuse to prescribe both - - - so it is kind of understandable.

[evai1234]

Originally Posted by Danielle

...
ps - my Endo refused to prescribe Depo Provera or anything like that for me. Just Premarin. He does not know enough to feel comfortable with that combination. If I were him and did not know, I would also refuse to prescribe both - - - so it is kind of understandable.

If he *really* does not know then I would doubt his qualification. Most likely he is just too uncomfortable in dealing normally with people like you (for whatever reasons it may be - religion, his personal views, legal considerations etc.). If he really wanted to help - it would be not too difficult for him to read guideliness on the internet, or a book about transgender care. Apparently he just does not want responsibility.

1.25mg of premarin is nearly nothing if your body still produces male hormones, as it cannot suppress them.

[evai1234]

Originally Posted by Danielle

Yes, I know that there are doctors spread throughout the US who do treat GD/TS/IS people. However, I did spend a full day calling every endochronologist in the phone book looking for another doctor to handle my case who might be better than the one that I presently use. The all told me that they do not deal with these conditions.

It sounds similar to saying "person with chest infection called to the GP who refused to treat them as they do not deal with this particular sort of chest infection...". The thing is that if a patient comes in the doctors must treat them in the best of their ability in the area they specialize in, else all less usual cases will be left untreated.
May I suggest you to register on specialized TS forum and ask there about endos? In any big and decent enough forum one should be able to get list of doctors, and then they could identify which one is closest to their location.

[kristoff]

Originally Posted by Danielle

ps - my Endo refused to prescribe Depo Provera or anything like that for me. Just Premarin. He does not know enough to feel comfortable with that combination. If I were him and did not know, I would also refuse to prescribe both - - - so it is kind of understandable.

If I were him and presumably a competent doctor, I would do a bit of reading and learn what needs to be learned from the literature. Your doctor is lazy, and as a result of that, likely dangerous. I'd make the effort to look a bit further afield for someone competent. Are you near any major universities with a medical school - a good place to look.

[Danielle]

Hi -

Just two general comments. I do not think that any given doctor is required to treat any given malady. If they feel that they are not competitent in an area requested to be treated, they can simply say no to the potential patient and that is that. That has been my general experience.

I agree that there are folks out there who can treat me properly and I need to do more research. I have been lazy in that regard since I have received the basics that I originally sought.

As a matter of fact, someone here (and I thank that person for that information) has sent me two names of NJ doctors who are apparently willing to treat for GD/TS. I plan to find out geographically where they work and then contact them.


Danielle

[Senjougahara]

Originally Posted by Danielle

I do not think that any given doctor is required to treat any given malady. If they feel that they are not competitent in an area requested to be treated, they can simply say no to the potential patient and that is that. That has been my general experience.

I don't know much about the American health care system, but in Britain if your doctor doesn't have the expertise to treat your condition she will refer you to a specialist. For example when I became partially deaf as a child my doctor referred me to an ENT (ear nose and throat) specialist who did some tests and discovered that my nose wasn't draining correctly. This was cutting off the airflow to my eustachian tubes which resulted in the air pressure behind my eardrum being lower than the outside pressure. He taught me how to inflate my ears manually.

Oh good lord that's far too much irrelevant information, what is wrong with me today?

Originally Posted by dev

Testosterone which tecnichally is an estrogen -that is a masculinizing estrogen as opposed to a feminine estrogen or a neutral estrogen, is a little bit harder to obtain.

There's such a thing as a neutral estrogen? Where can I get me some of that?

[dev]

Probably the best place to start getting educated about estrogens is by starting with the "phytoestrogens" (which are plant estrogens). There are three types of female estrogens which a few plants do have. However most of the estrogens that these plants have are neutral and may or may not correspond with some of the neutral estrogenic compounds that the body has naturally. There is a ton of chemical analysis being done right now on exactly which estrogenic chemical compound is going to where in the body (the bones, the heart, the brain, etc.) The body does seem to be able to convert any type of estrogen-like compound and convert it into another type. I really wish I could easily read all of these scientific papers but I can't. In a matter of a few years our school kids in science class will be correcting us on our old-fashioned notions about estrogens in this day. Actually it turns out your Grandma was right. Eat all your oatmeal and for lunch eat all your greens. The US soybean growers have really picked up on this and are promoting their product as the phytoestrogens that your body needs. However most of the soybeans grown in the US is tainted. They actually make me sick. But there are plenty of other sources of phytoestrogens. There is also a lot of hype and false information about phytoestrogens too among the "natural" crowd too. When it was discovered that my body and testicles had quit before I had competely matured (and I could not get hormone treatment: long story) I was warned that I should eat a lot of greens all the days of my life for my bones.

www.dietaryfiberfood.com/phytoestrogen.php

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytoestrogens

http://www.ehow.com/facts_5405140_fo...estrogens.html

http://www.menopausetheblog.com/.../...hytoestrogens/

[Danielle]

Hi Dev -

I think that the best source of Estrogogenic compounds is Estrogen. I am on Premarin for roughly 10 years now via an endochronologist and it definitely works. My body shape is a testament to that - - - major changes.

Prior to my involvement with Premarin, I played with phyto-estrogens. They did not work for me. But, Premarin/Conjucated Estrogens did the trick.

Danielle

ps - if you want to see pics, let me know and it can be arranged.

[dev]

Taking vitamin K supplements are not a bad idea either. Plus along with calcium tablets I take the type of multi-vitamins that have greens (from the health food store). I generally buy things on sale. But I'm not sure that's always a good idea though. As soon as I use up my all of my phyto-estrogen pills I will be including "the pill" into my diet also, except quartered as I had described earlier. Also as far as the multi-vitamins are concerned probably the cheap generic stuff you get at the grocery store is just as good as the more expensive stuff that you get at the health store anyway. The problem with women's multi-vitamins is that they include iron which we should not have much of. And the problem with men's multi-vitamins is they have too much zinc and not enough calcium. So children's or else straight multi-vitamins would be better along with calcium, K, and premarin or whatever would be a better choice. One should be making sure that they get all of their nutrients from eating right rather than by taking pills in the first place BUT that's much easier said than done. Oh well.

[Danielle]

Hi dev,

Good advice. I take a general purpose daily multi-vitaman along with a Calcium pill, and potassium (K) along with my daily dose of 1.25 mG Premarin. I may need to adjust those regimines as my T levels fall, but not sure.

Danielle

[mrt]

This is my own 2 cents worth and I'm NOT a doctor. But natal women need some testosterone in their "mix" to feel right. Mrs T went on HRT after menopause and needed some Testosterone in her combination. I think talking to someone about dialing in a true female mix is of great value to TS people like yourself. I think some TS women are so "anti" testosterone that they dial it down to abnormal levels and loose some of the benefits that Natal women have with a normal mix. Testosterone is not just "male" its the balance and amount that make us Male or Female. And btw men NEED Estrogen! Just not lots of it.

Note female levels of Testosterone are still very low in relation to normal male ones.

Originally Posted by Danielle

Hi,

I am in the process of becomming castrated. I have learned though reading here and at other venues that once castrated, some hormone level needs to be maintained for good health, emotionally and physically.

I have seen discussions describing Eunuchs going back on low dose Testosterone to level things out a bit - - - to improve both mental and physical health.

But, I am a transexual, and my hormone of choice is Estrogen/Premarin. I have been on that (1.25 mG/day) for around 10 years now.

My question is this: Does Estrogen/Premarin provide the necessary health benefits post castration as does low dosage Testosterone? Is the real story here perhaps that a human being must have some level of either Testosterone or Estrogen in order to enjoy good mental and/or physical health?

Put another way, does a genetic male who has been castrated need Testosterone if he is taking Estrogen? (I have a theory on this, but I do not want to bias the group with a simple theory.)

Does anybody have any theories or knowledge of this? Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Danielle