Eunuch Archive Message Boards

Eunuch Archive Message Boards (http://www.eunuch.org/vbulletin/index.php)

- Archive Writing Help Center (http://www.eunuch.org/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=24)

- - On Writing (http://www.eunuch.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=6551)

Just some thoughts.

I'm probably going to get myself into trouble with this post. I'm certain to piss some people off.

Clichés: I hate clichés. I'm so sick of seeing the word, 'package', in a story, I'll usually quit reading when I do-and that's but one that is repeated-over and over and over. It probably seemed innovative the first time or two it was used, but now, it's old and stale. If you don't want to call them cock and balls, dick and nuts, penis and testicles, make up a new name-then make up a new one the next time. Why, just because we might be writing about sex, do we have to use the same, tired, old, words, over and over?

Another: If you describe a character, you only have to tell us once how beautiful he is, how big his cock is, how old he is (goes the same for female characters). Do you think we have Alzheimer's and are going to forget?

I'm going to use Pueros's Nero 47 as an example because I would love to be able to read his Nero series. The man knows his history-especially Roman history. I love ancient history-would love to sit at the man's feet and learn from him, but I can't get through one of his stories. For example:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nero 47

Nymphidius Sabinus, attired in his toga praetexta, approached the beautiful but currently fearfully quaking slave boy, who was humiliatingly naked and bent over at the waist, firmly gripping his ankles. The nude 15 year-old occupying this debasing pose, in readiness for the forthcoming hits across his lustrous bottom from his young master’s rod, or ‘ferula’, was also attempting to summon up as much courage as possible in order to accept his imminent unjust chastisement without too much embarrassment.

As usual, the 13 year-old holding the rod felt cumbersome in his child’s purple-edged toga praetexta and momentarily pondered shedding the garment. However, the illegitimate son of the Emperor Caligula appreciated that, on this warm spring morning, he wore nothing else, apart from his sandals and loincloth underwear, or ‘subligaculum’, literally meaning ‘little bindings underneath’. He therefore decided that he would remain attired in the long flowing robe for now in order to enhance his imminent young victim’s undoubted feeling of shame at his own present nudity.

Nymphidius Sabinus also increased such shameful feeling further when, after arriving immediately behind the young slave, he began to stroke gently the imminent curvaceous subject of his rod’s fury, first with his free hand and then with the cruel ferula itself. The 15 year-old visibly vibrated in trepidation at each touch, to which sight the sadistic 13 year-old sarcastically commented "My boy, I see that your body’s a little excited today. It’s a pity that such excitement didn’t extend to your cock or you wouldn’t be in this situation!"

The young slave knew better than to reply to the comment and just attempted instead to remain as quiet and still as his debasing and distressing circumstances allowed. However, in response to the remark and realisation of what was soon to follow, the 15 year-old’s bodily quaking nevertheless increased. This reaction caused his gorgeous nude form to sway a little unsteadily within his undignified pose, as Nymphidius Sabinus’ rod was withdrawn from the pleasant curvature of the older boy’s buttocks in order to attain the uplifted position from where to launch its first strike.

Nymphidius Sabinus then surprised the petrified young slave by failing immediately to hit him. Instead of receiving the first, undoubtedly agonising and injurious blow across his bottom, the 15 year-old felt younger free fingers fondling his cock, which had already belatedly and shamefully risen to fulsome erection.

"I see, boy," Nymphidius Sabinus subsequently commented, "that masturbation did not cause your penis to become hard but your current predicament did." The 13 year-old then asked rhetorically "What kind of slave slut are you?" Given the evidence, the naked 15 year-old would not have known how to answer if his young master had expected a reply, which was not the case.

The slave boy’s penial hardness now became even more acute, beginning visibly to throb and vibrate, in reaction to Nymphidius Sabinus’ continued gentle fondling of the rigid shaft. The 15 year-old could feel his reproductive juices finally building up, ready to explode ecstatically from his cockhead. However, he knew better than to warn his young master, who presumably knew what he was doing.

Nymphidius Sabinus’ fingers eventually disappeared from the young slave’s clearly extremely excited erection, which was currently noticeably oozing copious precum, just before the 15 year-old would have climaxed and as suddenly and unexpectedly as the digits had arrived. The older boy subsequently did not know whether to feel frustration or relief at this development, as the reaction of his young master in response to any orgasmic ejaculation in the revised circumstances was difficult to determine.

The young slave also had little time to contemplate the issue because Nymphidius Sabinus now gave him the customary instructions for an imminent beating across the buttocks. "As usual," the 13 year-old commanded, "you’ll count each of the hits loudly and thank me for them and, if you forget this politeness or lose your balance in respect of any strike, it won’t count. Now ready yourself, boy, to receive your due chastisement!"

The slave boy braced himself as best he could to receive Nymphidius Sabinus’ undoubtedly efficient first blow, including clenching his bumcheeks, which he thought might help reduce the unpleasant effects of the imminent impacts. The 15 year-old also hoped that the wearing of a toga by his young master, rather than a light tunic, might hinder delivery.

The older boy’s aspiration was, however, not met, as the first strike of Nymphidius Sabinus’ rod not only sent waves of acute agony searing through the 15 year-old’s gorgeous body but also sent him crashing to the marble floor of the secluded garden colonnade.

He tells us nine times that the boy is 15 years-old. He told us-five times-I think-that he was naked. I remembered after the first time-didn't need to be told again.

Also, the adverbs-ditch the adverbs. Just tell us the story. Neither do you have to describe every aspect of the poor boy's anatomy. Let us, the readers, paint our own pictures in our minds. Just tell us the God damned story!

Neither do you have to impress us with your vocabulary. I have no doubt that you're intelligent, but, why use $5 words when 50 cent words tell the story so much better. As I've said, over and over, tell us the story. Get rid of all the bull shit that gets in the way-the descriptions, the adverbs, the big words. Here's how I would tell this story up to this point. I'm not saying it couldn't be done better than what I've written-actually I would like to see examples from other authors-but it does cut the length of the tale by about half.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slammr's version

Nymphidius Sabinus, wearing his toga praetexta, approached the slave boy, who, although beautiful, was naked and bent over at the waist, holding onto his ankles, awaiting punishment-punishment his young master was about to deliver. The boy was frightened and embarrassed-frightened because he had experienced the sting of a ferula, the rod, the other, younger, boy carried-embarrassed because Nymphidius Sabinus, at thirteen, was two years younger than he. The punishment was unjust. That it was to be delivered by a mere boy, made it worse.

The illegitimate son of the Emperor Caligula, Nymphidius Sabinus, shamed him further by stroking his ass-first with his hand-then with the rod. The boy shuddered at his touch. "Does my touch excite you?" asked the young master. "It's a pity it hadn't extended to your cock. If it had, you wouldn't be bent over waiting to get your ass beat."

The young slave knew better than to reply. He tried to remain quiet-and still-but, when Nymphidius Sabinus withdrew the rod from his ass and raised it as if to strike, he flinched. Instead of striking the boy, however, the young master, grabbed the slave's cock, which, to the slave boy's surprise-and shame-had become erect.

"So, boy. You can't get your cock hard when I tell you to masturbate, but the threat of the rod makes you hard. What kind of a slut are you?" The boy didn't answer. He knew Nymphidius Sabinus wasn't looking for an answer.

The boy's cock became harder-began to throb in response to Nymphidius Sabinus's fondling. He felt his climax approaching, but before he ejaculated, his young master-withdrawing his hand from his cock-struck him across the buttocks with the rod. He came, spurting all over the floor. "You know the drill, slave: count out each blow-and thank me for each-or they won't count, and I'll have to start all over. But-first-lick up the mess you've made on the floor."

I've told the story in five paragraphs instead of eleven. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe others like to have everything spelled out for them, but I don't. Part of the pleasure I get out of reading is to paint my own pictures in my mind-otherwise I'll go see the movie.

I hope I haven't pissed Pueros off. I would love for other authors to critique my writing. I write because I love it-and want to become better. I'll never be great. Great writers are born-not made-but, I hope-someday-to be good. I've had other authors write me to tell me how they would complete one of my stories. I always appreciate such correspondence-don't always agree with their suggestions-but appreciate them never-the-less.

I rarely read stories posted in the Eunuch Archive (often) for the reasons Slammr states. Many stories have potential to be interesting and erotic but are not because authors do not take care to make their stories as good as the stories might be. Many stories posted here might be excellent.

Currently, I cannot install my Word application; however, previously, I ran what I posted through spell and grammar check. I dd that to be polite. I hope that writers will take kindly what Slammr suggests. He gives constructive not mean advice.

A few years ago, I posted erotic stories on another board. I enjoyed writing the stories and I enjoyed the critiques readers made. I met two good friends after they my read stories. One became my girlfrend. When I no longer had ideas for stories, I stopped writing them.

My stories were not literary efforts. They were shared fantasies, but I worked to write well. I did not write in the heat of passion. I wrote and then rewrote the stories. I edited and edited.

I would real Slammr's commentary as hard constructive criticism, not flaming criticism. Perhaps a bit passionate, but that's sometimes a good thing.:idea:

I think someone has said, that the art of fiction is not in what you say, but in what your suggest. Get the suggestion right, and you don't need a lot of words.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paolo

I would real Slammr's commentary as hard constructive criticism, not flaming criticism. Perhaps a bit passionate, but that's sometimes a good thing.:idea:

I certainly didn't intend to flame Pueros-or any one else. I hope my comments are taken as constructive criticism. That's how they were meant. He's written a 47 part epic. I've never accomplished so much.

As an allegory, let's say that reading a story here that has a gay or bi label is like going into a gay bar. I've gone there knowing what it is-there's a sign outside saying that it's a gay bar. I've gone hoping to be seduced-hoping to find someone (a story) who will seduce me. Instead, what I find is someone who keeps reaching under the table to grab hold of my cock to jerk me off. I didn't come inside to get jerked off-maybe some do. I came in to be seduced. I want someone to take me home and make love to me. Give me that kind of story.

I've said nothing about writing that hasn't been said before. I made none of this up. I'm not THAT smart. Just suggestions. No one has to pay any attention to them.

I agree completely with Slammr. Having read his critique with a cold eye, I didn't think it was a flame-job. I thought it was constructive criticism.

Probably the biggest mistake people make when writing is that they don't go back and re-read their story and then edit it. If they did, the editing polish would make a world of difference in the quality of writing and the substance of the story. A couple of rules of thumb are that if it isn't important to the story then cut it. When in doubt, leave it out. :)

I agree with many of the points made in this thread and thought that Slammr was spot on. With regard to Pueros, I think that he has said elsewhere that he is an 'academic' which I take to mean that he is a lecturer at a college or university and this probably accounts for his somewhat didactic/pedantic style.

Having recently (in my dotage) taken a BSc on a part-time basis, I find the style very reminiscent of some of the Lecturers I had to endure. However, I do have sympathy with them. One of the things which absolutely amazed me was the number of times that they could be asked to repeat something which was actually very simple. It could be that his style of repeating the same information several times is a reaction to this and is how he tries to impart his knowledge to the flower of our youth.

Considering that the Universities are said to be producing the next generation of leaders, all I can say is: We are doomed - at least in the UK.

Seasons Greetings to All.

LOL

Another allegory-if you don't mind (OK, you get it whether you mind or not).

The story I'm looking for is like a beautiful woman-one who needs no make-up.

I'm not looking for a tawdy street whore, wearing heavy make-up, a short mini-skirt and a top which exposes her belly button.

"The story I'm looking for is like a beautiful woman-one who needs no make-up.

"I'm not looking for a tawdy street whore, wearing heavy make-up, a short mini-skirt and a top which exposes her belly button."

In my work, I interview and sometimes supervise young women. Sometimes they work to appeal to the young man hidden within the old man that I now am. They do not know that I need a testosterone shot to react to the stimuli with which they try to manipulate me. Manipulation does not work if the chemistry--actual chemistry--is wrong.

That is not a precise reaction to this thread, but it pretains to it. Seduction is not exactly the same as blunt display. I think that I would read more fiction here if I had the libido to dream.

Still, carefully composed narratives do appeal to me. Reading good writing about sexuality can be almost as good as making love--at least when you are an old man who does not have the physical need to make love but still has the memory of intimacy with all of its magic and richness. That includes the weird fears and fantasies that go with making love. These are powerful overtones of something long ago shared and celebrated.

I've just picked up on this thread & yes, Slammr, you have seriously pissed me off, especially as you didn't have the courtesy to let me know that you were going to quote one of my works in depth to make your rather self-centred points. I’m also sure that I could raise similar issues using your own stories and re-phrase some selected paragraphs to better effect. However, I won’t because what, in effect, you are referring to is writing style, which will vary greatly, particularly between people of different backgrounds and nationalities.

I’ll give you some perspectives of my own cultural inheritance as far as writing style is concerned:-

 I’ve been taught to try not to repeat verbs and nouns, including names, within particular paragraphs, which is one reason why I use my wide vocabulary. It is also why I often refer to characters in other terms, including their ages, not to re-emphasise their status or years but actually to avoid repetition. For example, if someone has been referred to, within the scope of 5 paragraphs, 5 times as ‘Gaius’, 5 as ‘the young man from Volsinii’ and 5 as ‘the 22 year-old’, I consider this better than 15 times by his name.

 I do not use my wide vocabulary out of boastfulness but, as described above, in order to avoid repetition. Also, if the words exist and I know them, why not use them? To do otherwise would be dumbing down and an insult to the English language and the intelligence of the reader.

 I dislike using brackets, or in your case dashes, in narrative, preferring commas. I generally utilise brackets only for factual author inserts, e.g. the modern name for a particular place.

 Not being an American, I do not use American words or phrases and, for example, ‘ass’, when referring to the human posterior, is just such a word.

I follow other writing maxims. For example, I do not use the verb ‘to get’ outside quoted modern conversation. I’ve been taught that the word displays a lack of imagination, as there’s always a much better one to use if you give the matter some thought.

I do repeat adjectives such as ‘beautiful’ and ‘naked’ and often provide comprehensive physical descriptions of characters because I believe that they increase eroticism. Slammr may disagree but he must allow me to have my different viewpoint on the matter.

There are good authors at eunuch.org whose literature styles I do not particularly like but I know that my aversion stems more from my own cultural hang-ups than their writing abilities. I would never dream of trying to influence the methods of such a person in order to tempt them towards my own favoured variety.

It is a pity that Slammr did not follow the same policy when starting this thread and I certainly do not intend to change my writing style in any way in response to his culturally narrow criticism.

PUEROS

I’ve felt obliged to come back to this thread because I believe that I must also respond to Colin’s post.

What Colin describes, in an unnecessarily condescending post, as my weaknesses of being didactic (presumably in the sense of being too inclined to instruct) and pedantic (presumably too wordy or too much parading of knowledge) are elsewhere, as I know from both public and private comments from others, considered strengths.

As I suggested in my response to Slammr, writing styles vary, as do reader tastes, with the latter for me resulting in a loyal following, even of my long ‘didactic’ and ‘pedantic’ sagas.

Please, Colin, don’t be so insular that you believe that everyone should conform to your own ideals and please, Colin, don’t use condescension when referring to me.

PUEROS

First off, I think that some explanation is in order here.

I would have closed this thread when I first read it, had I thought that Slammr was out to insult Pueros' writing. I viewed this as a critique, not a flame.

Writers all differ by style. Pueros finds his own style erotic. Slammr doesn't. So there. For a good example of writing style differences, read "THE TALISMAN" by Stephen King and Peter Straub. It's long and boring and painful, but it's a best seller. Don't ask me how it ever made it past an editor. Must have been by name alone.

I have also received email about my writing, with the foremost complaint being the length of stories and plot depth. While I have no problem following the plots, many other readers can't.

I don't know about Slammr's educational background, but it seems to be a good one. Pueros is obviously highly educated. Personally, I was never able to stay awake in a history class; pity that history is not written as if by Pueros, but then again, we can't tell middle school kids what Bagoas and Alexander REALLY did.

Criticism, in any form, is sometimes hard to take. When one cranks out a story, one becomes attached to it. One is often proud of his works.

Keep in mind that not everyone likes "HARRY POTTER" either. The Author was rejected something like 21 times, I read, in getting it published. And in my opinion, having been a "constant reader," as King calls us, since a young age, it's poorly written. Jesus and I have conversed about this at length.

For a real lesson in criticism and rejection, try submitting something for real publication. Just wait until years worth of effort and hard work, hours and hours of working, is labeled as "junk" as tossed aside.

It sort of makes a comment or two on a amatuer board like this look insignificant.

We like to have comments and email, folks, but keep in mind that sometimes you're going to get criticism as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pueros

I would love to have criticism by you, other authors, or by anyone, of any of my stories in public here on the message board. You are welcome to quote any of them since they have been publically posted to this archive. Because of that, I believe it's permissible to use them.

Some people will like explicit descriptions of the characters in the stories, along with all the adjectives and adverbs. I often receive email from readers who wish I had told them that the kids balls were heavy or hung low. I guess I could have, but another reader might have wanted tight balls. If I leave off such descriptions, the reader can form his own.

I read some of your earlier stories. I didn't have the same problem with them as I did with this one. I couldn't get through this episode of Nero. It felt like you had your hand on my cock and were trying to jack me off. I was just trying to say to not try so hard to turn people on. Just tell a good story.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pueros

 Ive been taught to try not to repeat verbs and nouns, including names, within particular paragraphs, which is one reason why I use my wide vocabulary. It is also why I often refer to characters in other terms, including their ages, not to re-emphasise their status or years but actually to avoid repetition. For example, if someone has been referred to, within the scope of 5 paragraphs, 5 times as ‘Gaius’, 5 as ‘the young man from Volsinii’ and 5 as ‘the 22 year-old’, I consider this better than 15 times by his name.
PUEROS

You referred to him as the 15 year old in almost every paragraph that I listed. Yoiu never referred to him by name. Perhaps you could have told us his name and used it occasionally, instead. It just seemed like you were trying to stress his age and his beauty. I got it the first time. I didn't need to be told it, over and over.

Please feel free to publically discuss any of my stories. I welcome your criticism. I don't have to agree with it, just as you don't have to agree with my criticism of Nero. And, you're right. I use dashes too frequently, although I think they're effective in stressing certain words. I'm trying to cut back on them, though, to use them only when I really want to stress something. Overuse destroys their effectiveness. I'm learning to write. I would like to see more such discussion by authors on the boards. I proffer an invitation to anyone to criticize my writing. It's the best way to learn.

Don't forget. I have expressed public approval of some of your stories on the message board.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pueros

I follow other writing maxims. For example, I do not use the verb ‘to get’ outside quoted modern conversation. I’ve been taught that the word displays a lack of imagination, as there’s always a much better one to use if you give the matter some thought.

PUEROS

I'm currently using a 3rd person writing style such that it's not an omnipotent 3rd person, but more the first person view, as if each person is seeing the world through his eyes and telling the story from his point of view, then switching to another person who's telling the story. If it's a kid who would probably use 'to get,' then I use it because he's telling the story at that time. If I had you in the story, or some other educated person, telling the story, I wouldn't use it. For example, I might even use the word 'ain't' third person, if I think the person telling the story might use it. Naturally, using this style, I could never say, 'The slave boy’s penial hardness,' because no one I know talks that way. Whether I'll continue to write using this mechanism, I don't know, but I like it for now.

I appreciate criticism. It is the normal way that humans beings interact. Science, art, writing, photography, and everything else that human beings do--including making love--require criticism.

Penial hardnessis a reality that I recall--from a long time ago. Nice expression! :D

Now that I’ve cooled down a little, I feel obliged to return to this thread one last time to point out two key mistakes that I think Slammr made in his original post.

First, Slammr did not in my opinion submit his criticism in the in the right forum. He submitted his post to the 'Archive Writing Help Center', not 'Story Reviews & Feedback'. He therefore appears to be, rather insultingly, quoting and using excerpts from 'Nero 47' for potential authors as if they were clear examples of bad writing, as opposed to a style with which he personally is uncomfortable.

Slammr obviously prefers a basic, simplistic, minimalist writing formula, using limited vocabulary and leaving a lot to the readers' imagination, which is fine with me. However, his post also appears to suggest that he believes that everyone else can improve by becoming clones and adopting his methods, which is not fine with me, as my chosen style, with which I am happy, is very different.

One of the great strengths of English literature is the richness of the language and its ability to cater for many tastes. Within this context, conformity is a destroyer of artistry whilst divergence encourages creativity. I shudder to think of how the works of many great modern writers, from the likes of Dickens onwards, would have to be amended to suit Slammr's principles.

Second, and perhaps even more sadly, Slammr also failed to notice in his critique that the author, Pueros, was using a particular literary technique, which he's utilised on many occasions, not least in his latest tale, ‘The Merchant of Venice’. This entails teasing the readers slightly by deliberately not initially naming someone.

Slammr’s mistake exemplifies the danger of extracting out of context a few paragraphs from a very long, complicated work, which possesses many threads and inter-connections.

Slammr correctly suggests in his critique that I called a certain character either 'the young slave boy' or 'the 15 year-old' many times rather than by his name. In fact, by the stage of my saga that he quotes, I had deliberately not named the child at all for storyline reasons, electing instead to use the aforementioned substitute descriptions.

I actually delayed naming the character until much later in the chapter for dramatic effect, when I also introduced his baby brother. To some followers of 'Nero', the names 'Endymion' and 'Sporos' might not mean too much at present. However, for those with knowledge of Greek mythology and Roman history, they'll be significant and will provide clues as to how the lives of the two siblings develop in future. The saga is actually full of both sneakily disguised and blatantly overt clues, including in the names, as to what will happen to characters, with one of the intellectual mental exercises for readers, if they care to indulge, being to try to spot and extrapolate them.

Slammr is fully entitled to his views. However, in my opinion, he should have demonstrated greater respect for a fellow regular contributor by not expressing them in the unfortunately insulting manner he chose, which has also proven to involve a major misjudgement of the story context. Nevertheless, given that there are far worse issues in the world to occupy our minds, he's forgiven as far as I'm concerned and the matter now forgotten.

PUEROS

Quote:

One of the great strengths of English literature is the richness of the language and its ability to cater for many tastes.

That pretty much sums it up right there.
Both parties have made their point.

This thread is done.

Thank you.