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Thread: Estrogens trigger osteoporosis

  1. #1

    Estrogens trigger osteoporosis

    An interesting review by a physician examining the studies and reaching the conclusion that estrogens actually are damaging to the bone. This should have implications to eunuchs currently on estrogens, as the evidence is compelling. The article also exposes the myth of mega doses (1,500 mg) of calcium, especially because the body is only able to absorb 500 mg at a time.
    Excess calcium may also be damaging to people with heart disease, as do the estrogens, as confirmed by recent studies. The role of magnesium as a natural protective factor against osteoporosis (as well as mood swings and muscle cramps) is further outlined.

    http://www.royalrife.com/0101.html

    From:
    Guy R. Schenker, D.C.
    January, 2001

    Dear Doctor,

    Do you have any patients who are worried about osteoporosis? Are
    there any women under your care who are considering estrogen
    replacement therapy as protection against osteoporosis? Then, here is
    one important study you will want to look into.

    Kassem M., et al. Potential mechanism of estrogen-mediated decrease
    in bone formation. Proc Assoc Am Physicians 1996, Mar;
    108(2):155-64.

    Yes, you read that correctly ... "Estrogen-mediated decrease in bone
    formation." "What exactly is going on here?" you may be wondering.
    Everyone "knows" that the one beneficial effect of estrogen is that it
    prevents post menopausal bone loss. The fact is (as is clearly shown in
    the scientific literature) that the truth is not only different than we are
    led to believe, but the exact opposite of the propaganda we have been
    fed. Here is another study which shows that estrogen is a causative
    factor in osteoporosis:

    Bauer, et al. Skin thickness, estrogen use and bone mass in older
    women. Menopause 1(3), 131-136, 1991.

    This study found that estrogen was associated both with thinning skin
    and with decreased bone mass in older women.

    Here is more evidence implicating estrogen as a destroyer of bone
    mass:

    Schlechte, et al. Bone density in amenorrheic women with and without
    hyper prolactinemia. J Clin Endocrin & Metab 56,1120, 1983.

    This study demonstrated a direct damaging affect of prolactin on bone.
    And then this next study ...

    Dannies. "Control of prolactin production by estrogen," Chapter 9 in
    Biochemical Actions of Hormones I Academic Press, 1985.

    ... showed that estrogen is a primary stimulus to prolactin production.

    Prolactin is a stress hormone produced by the pituitary which many
    studies have shown causes osteoporosis. Furthermore, many studies
    also show that estrogen promotes the secretion of prolactin. These
    studies make it clear that something that increases something that
    causes osteoporosis can not possibly prevent osteoporosis.

    How can the pharmaceutical establishment get away with promoting
    estrogen as protection against osteoporosis when research clearly
    shows that the opposite is true? They have spent zillions of dollars in a
    propaganda campaign that is entirely based on a half truth (evidence
    which was subsequently proved to be false, showing a damaging, not a
    protective role of estrogen -- but which was then quickly replaced by
    another half truth on which they still base their dishonest claim).

    The original half truth employed by the estrogen propaganda machine
    was the discovery forty or more years ago that estrogen can cause a
    positive calcium balance -- in other words, retaining some of a calcium
    test dose, rather than dumping it all into the bowel and kidneys for
    excretion. The estrogen promoters argued that this fact showed that the
    retained calcium was being stored in bone. But very quickly endocrine
    physiologists showed that estrogen causes the retention of calcium by
    soft tissues, not by bone. The accumulation of calcium in soft tissues
    is, of course, an accurate marker of stress and aging. (In other words
    estrogen just makes you old -- as expressed in sclerotic calcium
    deposits all through the body.)

    This, of course, set the estrogen promoters scrambling to suppress the
    nasty little details about calcium retention, and frantically look for
    another excuse to peddle estrogen as a protector against osteoporosis.
    They seized upon another discovery -- namely, that estrogen can reduce
    the activity of osteoclasts, the cells that continuously break down bone
    in their complimentary and cooperative role to osteoblasts, the cells
    that then rebuild the bone.
    Be certain you understand this so that you can explain it clearly to your
    patients. There are two types of cells continuously at work in bones,
    making bone a dynamic, continuously evolving living tissue. There is
    one type of cell that continuously breaks down bone structure, while
    the other type of cell continuously rebuilds it, and the two are in
    constant balance. In reading the last two issues of this Letter you have
    come to know that estrogen is a destructive stress hormone that
    interferes with the normal function of many types of cells. One of the
    cell types whose function estrogen particularly destroys is the
    osteoclasts -- the cells that tear down bone. And, as it turns out,
    estrogen is more destructive to the osteoclasts than it is to the
    osteoblasts.

    The estrogen peddlers seized on this fact and began to promote it as
    proof that estrogen was good for the bones because it inhibited
    osteoclastic activity. Of course it is never mentioned that estrogen does
    nothing to help rebuild the bone. It merely slows down and destroys
    the balance of the normal remolding process of bone.

    But at any rate, the estrogen promoters now had their half truth on
    which they could base their case for estrogen. Now that they could say
    (with tongue in cheek) that estrogen "prevents bone loss," never again
    was mentioned the original half truth about estrogen promoting a
    positive calcium balance. Positive calcium balance had been the
    essence of the first argument for using estrogen to prevent osteoporosis
    -- but when it was recognized by everyone that calcium wasn't being
    stored in the bones as a result of estrogen, it was convenient for the
    estrogen industry to forget all about the positive calcium balance
    produced by estrogen since it really meant that estrogen was causing
    aging, tissue damage, and degeneration. The second half truth enabled
    them to tidy up their fraudulent case for estrogen replacement therapy.

    "Surely," I can hear you wondering, "There must have been some
    evidence in support of estrogen rebuilding bone for the pharmaceutical
    establishment to contrive such a huge campaign in support of the bone
    protecting benefits of estrogen." No. Again, there is only scant
    research showing that estrogen slows bone loss, and none that it
    rebuilds bone. Furthermore, the studies purporting to show benefits
    resulting from estrogen were done using the Dexa method of measuring
    bone density. Here is an interesting study which shows the poor
    validity of Dexa:

    Schneider and Reiners. Dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry for bone
    density can lead to false conclusions about bone mineral content,
    because of alterations in tissue fat or water content. JAMA 277(1), 23,
    1997.

    This study showed that the influence of fat distribution on bone mass
    measurements with DEXA can be of considerable magnitude and
    ranges up to 10% error per two centimeters of fat. It also showed
    tremendous variability in bone mass measurement due to changes in
    fluid retention.

    Now, ask yourself, what are the most immediate effects on a woman's
    body of estrogen replacement therapy? There is an immediate and
    steadily progressing increase in body fat, and, there is a tremendous
    increase in fluid retention. As described in the study noted above, both
    increased fat and fluid retention give a false increased bone density
    reading using Dexa. So, after a woman has been on estrogen for six
    months, she has gained five pounds of fat and five pounds of water.
    She puts her now squishy body in front of the Dexa and, presto! -- her
    bone density number is improved.

    What we are saying is that it has never been demonstrated that estrogen
    helps rebuild or remineralize bone. At best, it slows bone loss.
    Furthermore, even the rate of slowing the bone loss is over- estimated
    by bone scans because the increase in fat and particularly fluid
    retention due to the estrogen gives a false increase in the density
    measurement.

    If falling estrogen at menopause does not cause osteoporosis, then what
    does? There are some hormonal factors involved, and there are many
    nutrition and other lifestyle factors involved. In the hormonal category
    consider this study:

    Johnston, et al. "Age-related bone loss," in osteoporosis II, Grune and
    Stratton, NY, 1979, pp 91-100.

    In this study it was found that progesterone, but not estrone, estradiol,
    testosterone, or androstedione, was significantly lower in those losing
    bone mass most rapidly.

    Progesterone actually promotes bone rebuilding, rather than just
    slowing its loss. One mechanism by which progesterone protects bones
    is that it is an antagonist to catabolic stress hormones such as
    glucocorticoids which destroy bone (as well as skin, brain, etc.) tissue,
    and which increase with aging.

    The other hormones supporting bone density maintenance in old age
    are DHEA, testosterone, pregnenolone, and thyroid. Now, you may
    still be wondering, "But if the drop in estrogen at menopause doesn't
    cause osteoporosis, then why does it begin with the onset of
    menopause?"

    It doesn't. And that is the greatest lie of all. Bone density actually
    begins decreasing during early adulthood and progresses steadily until a
    woman reaches her mid 40's, when progesterone levels typically start to
    drop, at which point the rate of mineral loss accelerates. Here are the
    facts:

    Between the ages of 21 and 40 there is a considerable increase in
    women's estrogen production. However, bone loss has been shown to
    actually begin around the age of 23, and progresses through the years
    when estrogen levels are actually rising. In fact, most women lose two
    thirds of the bone loss that they are ultimately going to lose in their life
    before they even reach menopause. Do you begin to see how absurd it
    is to blame menopause-related hormone changes for osteoporosis?

    Re-read that last paragraph, and memorize it. You are going to recite it
    over and over again with patient after patient for years and years until
    the estrogen hoax is fully exposed. Each time a post-menopausal
    patient comes to you explaining how she just had a bone scan which
    showed, "the beginnings of osteoporosis," you must make her
    understand that that loss of bone density has been going on since she
    was 23 years old, and had nothing to do with low estrogen (and
    probably much to do with too much estrogen and too little progesterone
    throughout her 20's, 30's and 40's). If she shows osteoporosis today it is
    because of lifestyle choices she made over a period of several decades
    including: insufficient exercise, insufficient sunlight, insufficient trace
    minerals, along with excess stress hormones such as glucocorticoids,
    cathecolamines, and estrogen, whose excess is generally associated
    with the various NUTRI-SPEC metabolic imbalances.


    Notice, I didn't say anything about a calcium deficiency. Here is
    another critical piece of info. It has been clearly shown that many of
    the aging, tissue damaging and degeneration effects caused by estrogen
    are exacerbated by calcium, and opposed by magnesium. In this light it
    is seen that excessive calcium supplementation actually potentiates the
    damaging effect of estrogen - including the damaging effect of estrogen
    on bone - while magnesium has a protective effect against excess
    estrogen, including a protective effect against osteoporosis. The two
    studies you want to check in support of this are:

    Abraham and Grewal. A total dietary program emphasizing
    magnesium instead of calcium. Effect on the mineral density of
    calcanius bone in post menopausal women on hormonal therapy. J
    Reprod Med 1990, May; 35(5):503-7.

    Muneyyirci-Delale, et al. Serum ionized magnesium and calcium in
    women after menopause: Inverse relation of estrogen with ionized
    magnesium. Fertil Steril 1999, May; 71(5):869-72.

    It is interesting to note that both men and women lose minerals from
    their bones at a rate of about 1% per year. Men have lower estrogen in
    youth than women do, and their bones are much heavier. During aging,
    however, as their bones get thinner, men's estrogen levels (unlike
    women's) keep rising. After about age 54 the average man actually has
    higher estrogen than the average woman. Similarly, muscle loss occurs
    at about the rate of one percent per year. Women's muscles, like their
    bones, are normally smaller than men's during youth, and estrogen,
    which inhibits muscular development, explains much of this difference.
    With aging, as men's estrogen levels rise, they begin to lose their
    muscular advantage over women.

    Reiterating our comments from the last two issues of this Letter,
    estrogen is a damaging stress hormone to both men and women.
    Accelerating the loss of bone and muscle strength is just one of its
    many devastating effects. As regards the proper treatment for your
    patients with osteoporosis consider the following:

    Hochberg. Preventing fractures in post-menopausal women with
    osteoporosis. A review of recent controlled trials of anti-resorptive
    agents. Drugs Aging 2000 Oct; 17(4):317-30.

    This study was a review of all the recent work done on treatments for
    post-menopausal osteoporosis and reached several conclusions,
    including that, "there is insufficient published evidenced from
    randomized controlled trials to convincingly support the anti-fracture
    efficacy of ... agents ... including ... estrogen ... at this time."

    Interestingly, this study did show clear objective evidence supporting
    calcium plus vitamin D in reducing fractures.

    In other words, your patients are not likely to benefit from either
    estrogen replacement or any other form of medical intervention for
    osteoporosis. The answer is in NUTRI-SPEC. It is certainly not in
    estrogen replacement, nor in mega dose calcium supplementation. The
    only adjunct you need to each patient's NUTRI-SPEC QRG protocol is
    the judicious use of progesterone or DHEA or pregnenolone or thyroid,
    along with some extra vitamin D. We will give you protocol for the
    proper use of these therapeutic agents in our next Letter. Meanwhile,
    do everything you can to keep your patients off any form of estrogen.
    ESTROGEN MAKES YOU FAT, DEPRESSED, AND OLD!


    Sincerely,

    Guy R. Schenker, D.C.
    Last edited by Eunuchist; 07-07-2005 at 04:24 AM.


    "Physically, the castrate is an improved organism. General health and longevity are increased." Dr. C.C. Hawke, summarizing the conclusions of several medical studies on castration in "California Sexual Deviation Research", Jan. 1951, p. 109.

  2. #2

    Re: Estrogens trigger osteoporosis

    I plan on starting estrogen sooner or later, and part of the reason is osteoporosis prevention, so hopefully what has always been believed about estrogen is correct.

    I have always wondered about the large calcium dose though. That is well above the body's daily needs, and I always understood that the body just gets rid of excess minerals.

  3. #3

    Re: Estrogens trigger osteoporosis

    It does get rid of what it doesn't want.
    Take multivitamins, for instance - take too many, and your urine turns colors. That's the unused nutrients being passed; same idea.
    It's like a paper towel, it'll only absorb so much.
    http://www.eunuchworld.org/ Stories? Yes, did YOU review?

  4. #4
    The Rest of the Story Riverwind's Avatar
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    Re: Estrogens trigger osteoporosis

    Osteoporosis is a disease that causes bones to become thin, weak, and easy to break.

    This is caused by the lack of hormones.

    People like me who have Osteoporosis take a couple of things, Calcium and Fosamax.

    My doctor has proscribed 500 mg of calcium twice a day for 6 days, on the seventh day I take the Fosamax.

    All eunuchs not on hormones should have a bone scan every two years, I get one every year.

    This years scan showed that I am out of the red zone but not quite back in the green zone as yet. My doctor and I talked about it and I will most likely continue with the Calcium and Fosomax for the next few years.

    Osteoporosis comes with the lack of hormones, that was the other choise I had for the Osteo, was HRT which I turned down.

    If you want more information on Osteoporosis feel free to email me at
    Riverwind@eunuch.org


    River
    He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security.

    Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays instead of serving you if he sacrifices it to your opinion.
    Edmund Burke

  5. #5

    Re: Estrogens trigger osteoporosis

    Quote Originally Posted by Riverwind
    Osteoporosis is a disease that causes bones to become thin, weak, and easy to break.

    This is caused by the lack of hormones.

    People like me who have Osteoporosis take a couple of things, Calcium and Fosamax.

    My doctor has proscribed 500 mg of calcium twice a day for 6 days, on the seventh day I take the Fosamax.

    All eunuchs not on hormones should have a bone scan every two years, I get one every year.

    This years scan showed that I am out of the red zone but not quite back in the green zone as yet. My doctor and I talked about it and I will most likely continue with the Calcium and Fosomax for the next few years.

    Osteoporosis comes with the lack of hormones, that was the other choise I had for the Osteo, was HRT which I turned down.

    If you want more information on Osteoporosis feel free to email me at
    Riverwind@eunuch.org


    River

    I wonder if just the minimal dose of estrogen I ordered would be enough to prevent osteoporosis. Is there a certain dose of either hormone that is necessary?

    I am hoping to get my doctor to prescribe a bone scan later today, but I have my doubts because she has already made it clear she does not approve of what I have done. She's giving me a hard time with just about everything.

  6. #6
    Archive Regular
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    Re: Estrogens trigger osteoporosis

    Quote Originally Posted by Plix
    I wonder if just the minimal dose of estrogen I ordered would be enough to prevent osteoporosis. Is there a certain dose of either hormone that is necessary?

    I am hoping to get my doctor to prescribe a bone scan later today, but I have my doubts because she has already made it clear she does not approve of what I have done. She's giving me a hard time with just about everything.
    Well, it's time to find an other doctor. She doesn't approve so get referral from one of your psychoanalyst, for a transsexal friendly doctor.

    _g

  7. #7
    Mother Superior of Chat Christina's Avatar
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    Re: Estrogens trigger osteoporosis

    I have asked my doctor on several occasions if I should be getting a bone scan. His reply: "as long as I am on hormone treatment I shouldn't be too concerned". Seems logical that as long as you have either hormone in your system that it should prevent osteoporosis.

    Quote Originally Posted by _g
    Well, it's time to find an other doctor. She doesn't approve so get referral from one of your psychoanalyst, for a transsexal friendly doctor.
    This is what I did. After my initial meeting with a therapist I got a name from her for a doctor that prescribed hormones. He is a gay/TG friendly doctor.

  8. #8

    Re: Estrogens trigger osteoporosis

    After today's refusal to even monitor me if I take hormones myself, getting a new doctor is exactly what I plan on doing. But I don't know where to look. I am not seeing a therapist anymore. I can't afford it. All the ones I saw in the past followed the SoC religiously and would not let me see a doctor until at least 3 months to the day. How else could I locate a doctor who is TG friendly?

  9. #9

    Re: Estrogens trigger osteoporosis

    Quote Originally Posted by Plix
    I wonder if just the minimal dose of estrogen I ordered would be enough to prevent osteoporosis. Is there a certain dose of either hormone that is necessary?
    No, it won't. This particular hormone doesn't help against osteoporosis. In time, it'll make it worse, though. Read & re-read the article. Most of the doctors have no real competence in this field; they were fed the hype for years, and the article above illustrates exactly why.

    If you still believe estrogen helps for osteoporosis, you're part of the hype, and unfortunately, that's exactly what the drug industry wants. What "have always been believed about estrogen" has mostly been blown into smithereens by several recent studies.

    If you really want to prevent osteoporosis - excersize, walk, eat healthy, quit smoking, consume magnesium (200-300 mg daily should be fine) and other important minerals. Doing that you'll not only prevent osteoporosis, but a legion of other diseases and disabilities in the future. Never rely on hormones - the consequences may prove disastrous. Again, read & re-read the article.

    Good luck!
    Last edited by Eunuchist; 07-31-2005 at 10:41 PM.


    "Physically, the castrate is an improved organism. General health and longevity are increased." Dr. C.C. Hawke, summarizing the conclusions of several medical studies on castration in "California Sexual Deviation Research", Jan. 1951, p. 109.

  10. #10

    Re: Estrogens trigger osteoporosis

    Quote Originally Posted by Eunuchist
    No, it won't. This particular hormone doesn't help against osteoporosis. In time, it'll make it worse, though. Read & re-read the article. Most of the doctors have no real competence in this field; they were fed the hype for years, and the article above illustrates exactly why.

    If you still believe estrogen helps for osteoporosis, you're part of the hype, and unfortunately, that's exactly what the drug industry wants. What "have always been believed about estrogen" has mostly been blown into smithereens by several recent studies.

    If you really want to prevent osteoporosis - excersize, walk, eat healthy, quit smoking, consume magnesium (200-300 mg daily should be fine) and other important minerals. Doing that you'll not only prevent osteoporosis, but a legion of other diseases and disabilities in the future. Never rely on hormones - the consequences may prove disastrous. Again, read & re-read the article.

    Good luck!

    Should I still get a bone scan? How much does the average scan cost? I can't get it through insurance because they denied it as not being medically necessary. Their criteria for medically necessary included women who are estrogen deficient but not men who are T deficient.

  11. #11
    The Rest of the Story Riverwind's Avatar
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    Re: Estrogens trigger osteoporosis

    Plix,

    First - Fire your Doctor and tell her that.

    Second - get a list of all the doctors that except your insurance, I know there is more than one.

    Third - Call your first doctor and tell her to go screw herself.

    Forth - you can find a gay/ts doctor in the gay phone book which is I think purple or something like that. If you get a doctor from this group your in.

    Fifth - FIRE YOUR DOCTOR. Remember its your body she is dealing with not hers.

    Sixth - Send me an email
    He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security.

    Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays instead of serving you if he sacrifices it to your opinion.
    Edmund Burke

  12. #12
    WeRNotAfraid
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    Re: Estrogens trigger osteoporosis

    DO NO believe one study that shows "estrogen makes osteoporosis worse." I cannot believe someone on this board would be so irresponsible as to suggest that estrogen actually CAUSES osteoporosis.

    Time and time again, estrogen has been shown to be effective in the treatment and prevention of osteoporosis. Anyone who's been castrated for any reason should take the health of their bones very seriously and should either be on HRT, calcium, or closely monitored. The minimum effective dose of estradiol that's been shown to prevent osteoporosis is 1mg.

    More importantly, I urge people to take things with a grain of salt. Study after study has shown a much lower rate of hip fracture amongst post-menopausal women on Premarin vs those on placebo. I myself take Estrace daily to prevent bone loss, and despite what some crackpot might tell you it's certainly not doing me any harm. Don't fall for ONE person who says nonsense things when the vast, vast majority of medical professionals and studies say something else. Not a single person on here should believe any of the anti-estrogen nonsense.

  13. #13
    The Rest of the Story Riverwind's Avatar
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    Re: Estrogens trigger osteoporosis

    Very true, thank you.

    I remember back oh 40 yrs ago I guess, this gal who lived around the corner fell and broke her leg. Her estrogen was gone do to age and she traded boos for milk and cheese through her adult life.

    Every person is different but I too think this doctor is a quack. I would want to see an open test for him to prove his point. Lets say at one of the major teaching universities or several.

    River

    Lack of hormones + lack of calcium = Osteoporosis
    He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security.

    Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays instead of serving you if he sacrifices it to your opinion.
    Edmund Burke

  14. #14
    The Rest of the Story Riverwind's Avatar
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    Re: Estrogens trigger osteoporosis

    OK OK EVERYBODY STOP

    NUTRI-SPEC is a product pluged by this doctor in lou of other treatments. I am sure he can show all sorts of test results. I doubt he would be able to show any results of these test performed by a teaching University with hospital attached.

    This doctor is not an MD. he is a D.C. which is a doctor of?

    This sounds like the guy selling (use the voice of W.C. Fields) snake oil, will cure anything, trust me.


    River
    He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security.

    Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays instead of serving you if he sacrifices it to your opinion.
    Edmund Burke

  15. #15

    Re: Estrogens trigger osteoporosis

    Ordinarily "DC" would indicate a chiropractor. --FLO--
    Condensing fact from the vapor of nuance.

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