living without testosterone

[curious77]

Hi guys I took finasteride and it gave me all the symptoms of low or no T but without any treatment as TRT doesn't work.

I am interested in experiences of castrated guys who don't take TRT. What symptoms do you have and how are you able to manage them effectively?
Also have you experienced sides like darkening of genital skin or muscle wasting in strange areas like the face?

[unencumbered]

When I was taking Siterone and progressed to alcohol injections, I was depressed, lethargic and tired but my body seemed to compensate over time and I could function almost normally without TRT. After my surgery, however, that all came back and only the use of TRT seems to reverse it.

[Hash]

When I was taking Siterone and progressed to alcohol injections, I was depressed, lethargic and tired but my body seemed to compensate over time and I could function almost normally without TRT. After my surgery, however, that all came back and only the use of TRT seems to reverse it.

Same here, deep dark depression, lethargy, no motivation. I use low dose testosterone, which is the one great benefit of being castrated, I control "IT" - "IT" doesn't control me.

[Woggler58]

Read Kristoff's multi-part post of Jan 4, 2008 in the Cancer, Testicular and Prostate section of this EA forum. It's titled, Treating the Side Effects of Testosterone Deprivation. The source is the Prostate Cancer Research Institute quarterly magazine, Insights. Typical symptoms experienced by prostate cancer patients living with no T are covered, along with what (if anything) helps to manage them. PCRI's online archives should also have this info, from late 2007.

[janekane]

"Your mileage may vary" may be worth considering. I abandoned testicles and their testosterone in 1986, and have never even remotely considered testosterone replacement. Allowing for commonplace aging effects, I am as motivated as ever, and ultra-low testosterone has had only the effect of keeping me from being depressed to the extent that it has had any effect at all on depression. I have never become lethargic.

There is some biological evidence that some transgender-spectrum people have brain hormone receptors which are optimized for female hormone patterns and for whom male hormone patterns are as though somewhat toxic. That is my subjective experience so far; the only effects of consequence for me following castration in 1986 have been worthwhile improvements in my experienced quality of life.

Were I to guess, my situation is not particularly common, yet not so rare as to be biological nonsense.

In dealing with very difficult life situations and problems, my practical ability to deal with such is, by every method of evaluation I have yet found, much improved.

Testosterone replacement? It may be best for you, and that is great if true. But I want to avoid thinking about the "terrible, unyielding fight" I would be in if someone were to insist that I return to testosterone levels higher than I have now.

[JustLurking]

There is some biological evidence that some transgender-spectrum people have brain hormone receptors which are optimized for female hormone patterns and for whom male hormone patterns are as though somewhat toxic.

Do you have a source for this? I would be interested in reading it.

What do you mean by toxic specifically?

[hkeunuch]

I am a chemical eunuch and not on any TRT. I am not a medical doctor, so here is a layman's opinion only.

First off, I assume curious77 taking finasteride has,as part of the objectives, to reduce testosterone. So I don't see any reason to take finasteride and testosterone replacement. That makes your body a test tube filled with opposing chemicals. IF the finasteride is causing unpleasant side effects of testosterone deprivation, then you ought to consider lowering finasteride dosage, NOT testosterone replacement.

When I was taking Androcur, I got depression, dark dark moods, crying spells, lethargy, fat gains, even anemia. I kept reducing Androcur to find a balance between the effects of chemical castration but minimizing the effects of T-deprivation. In the end, I managed to stay on Androcur for 4 yrs, and when I did wean myself off of it altogether, I got the best of both worlds. My guess is that my other glands produce just enough testosterone to keep me off of all the effects of T-deprivation. Yet, the damage to my testicles were clearly prominent, as my libido, genital size never returned. If anything, my breast continues to want to grow. But most important of all, I still very much enjoy the eunuch calm and mild temper.

As Androcur (or other chemical castration meds) really do not distinguish between testosterone produced from your testes or elsewhere, it could reduce T levels below those of a surgical eunuch. But once the meds are off, the body would produce a small amount of T. The question is whether this remaining amount of T is enough to keep the person happy. That, for sure, depends on your mileage, as evidenced by the various replies by different eunuchs, with some requiring TRT while others completely satisfied without any TRT. But here again, if I am not mistaken, all of these people were surgical eunuchs, no longer on any form of anti-androgen meds. Their situations really do not apply to you, curious77. Your solution ought to be finding a lower dosage of finasteride or looking for other meds to achieve your initial objectives.

[janekane]

Do you have a source for this? I would be interested in reading it.

What do you mean by toxic specifically?

Testosterone is on the State of California list of known carcinogens:

http://scorecard.goodguide.com/chemi..._list_name=p65

There is a book, out of print, found in some libraries and, from time to time, at various used booksellers, some of which may be found on www(dot)bookfinder(dot)com: Kim Elizabeth Stuart, "The Uninvited Dilemma," which was the result of a research study done by interviewing a fair number of transgender spectrum people. I am at the MoM now, the book, and its supporting research data booklet are back at home. The research data booklet is plausibly almost as rare as rooster's teeth (I have the only copy that I am aware of, having searched for a duplicate to share with other people in vain, so far).

I was a member of the Chicago Gender Society (CGS) during part of the time I lived in the Greater Chicago Metropolitan Area, and I did my own "talking with other transgender spectrum people."

A few of the other CGS members described experiences similar to mine; the arrival of testosterone that came with puberty was mentally seriously problematic, and the reduction of testosterone that came with orchiectomy as part of gender correction was experienced as profoundly problem-solving.

Toxicity of testosterone has long been reported in the biological and social science literature in terms of the greater proclivity of testosterone to enhance socially/personally destructive behavior and the tendency of testosterone to increase a person's rate of metabolism by about 10% over low testosterone baseline metabolism. Typical female hormone levels increase metabolism by about 5% during the time from menarche to menopause.

By the time I was in third grade, I was busy studying human biology at college level or more, as both of my parents studied biology in college; my dad minored in it and my mom had studied nursing. Before I was a year and half of age, I had become vividly aware that I did not fit the social tradition of "boy." When I began reading biology, in third grade, and recognized that women were granted mercy from sex hormones as men were ordinarily not granted mercy, it did occur to me that the "design" of the male body was plausibly rather clever; when testicles were no longer useful for baby-making, parting with them might be awefully (not a typo) simple.

For myself, I experienced, as I have previously commented. the increased testosterone that came with puberty to give me a form of "brain fog" that nicely abandoned me with my 1986 bilateral orchiectomy. I was castrated mainly to reduce my risk of the sort of cancer issues from which my dad and brother died. For myself, the change back to the sort of clarity of thinking that I had prior to puberty was a welcome, and somewhat expected, benefit.

I have known men who were castrated as prostate cancer control efforts, and who told me that their thinking was improved with puberty and became messed-up after castration.

Because I have done my own research, in addition to studying the literature, it never come into my mind to tell someone else what their experience with castration will be based on my personal experience. To me, the biological diversity which makes human life possible precludes my accurately foisting my personal experiences onto anyone else.

What was that line in the Forrest Gump movie, "Life is like a box of chocolates; you never know what you are going to get."?

[curious77]

I am a chemical eunuch and not on any TRT. I am not a medical doctor, so here is a layman's opinion only.

First off, I assume curious77 taking finasteride has,as part of the objectives, to reduce testosterone. So I don't see any reason to take finasteride and testosterone replacement. That makes your body a test tube filled with opposing chemicals. IF the finasteride is causing unpleasant side effects of testosterone deprivation, then you ought to consider lowering finasteride dosage, NOT testosterone replacement.

When I was taking Androcur, I got depression, dark dark moods, crying spells, lethargy, fat gains, even anemia. I kept reducing Androcur to find a balance between the effects of chemical castration but minimizing the effects of T-deprivation. In the end, I managed to stay on Androcur for 4 yrs, and when I did wean myself off of it altogether, I got the best of both worlds. My guess is that my other glands produce just enough testosterone to keep me off of all the effects of T-deprivation. Yet, the damage to my testicles were clearly prominent, as my libido, genital size never returned. If anything, my breast continues to want to grow. But most important of all, I still very much enjoy the eunuch calm and mild temper.

As Androcur (or other chemical castration meds) really do not distinguish between testosterone produced from your testes or elsewhere, it could reduce T levels below those of a surgical eunuch. But once the meds are off, the body would produce a small amount of T. The question is whether this remaining amount of T is enough to keep the person happy. That, for sure, depends on your mileage, as evidenced by the various replies by different eunuchs, with some requiring TRT while others completely satisfied without any TRT. But here again, if I am not mistaken, all of these people were surgical eunuchs, no longer on any form of anti-androgen meds. Their situations really do not apply to you, curious77. Your solution ought to be finding a lower dosage of finasteride or looking for other meds to achieve your initial objectives.

Thanks for this and the other replies.

Just to make clear, and I highlighted where you have misunderstood me, I HAVE quit finasteride. That was when the full symptoms of androgen deprivation began. Unfortunately no one as yet knows why and it has happened to many other men. Furthermore I tried TRT and it had no effect, again as common with the many other men thkis has happened to. Therefore, given that I am stuck in this eunuch state until some treatment emerges, I am interested in finding out how castrated men manage their symptoms, and what possible health problems known and lesser known they encounter.

woggler thanks for linking that. I think I have read something similar already but will check it out.