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Thread: "The Ghosts of Gotham City" and "Simon Beyond" explained.

  1. #1
    New Story Editor Cainanite's Avatar
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    "The Ghosts of Gotham City" and "Simon Beyond" explained.

    I've realized that not all of you may be familiar with the Batman Beyond storyline that Paolo and I have been playing with in our stories;

    "Simon Beyond"

    and

    "The Ghosts of Gotham City"

    So, I've decided to put up this little explanation.

    WARNING: SPOILERS AHEAD!

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    http://dcanimated.wikia.com/wiki/Project_Batman_Beyond

    Project Batman Beyond was a secret project launched by Amanda Waller through her old Project Cadmus connections to ensure that Batman would have a successor. The result was Terry McGinnis, in actuality the genetic son of Bruce Wayne and Mary McGinnis.

    History

    During Amanda Waller's encounters with the Justice League, both hostile and friendly, she developed a great admiration for Batman, and came to believe that someone like him would always be needed. As she watched Bruce Wayne age, she realized he wouldn't be around forever. Drawing on her old contacts with Project Cadmus, Waller devised a scheme to give Bruce a genetic "son", who would likewise be compelled to take up a life as a crime fighter.[1]

    To begin the project, Waller found a young couple that were almost identical psychological matches to Wayne's father and mother: Warren McGinnis and Mary McGinnis. Using nanotechnology and a sample of Wayne's DNA, she created a retrovirus that was administered to Warren during a routine flu inoculation, which over-wrote Warren's reproductive DNA with Wayne's DNA. A year later, Terry McGinnis was born.[1]

    Knowing that genetics were not the only factor in creating Batman, Waller later hired an assassin to murder Terry's parents at the same age and under very similar circumstances as Bruce had endured in losing his parents, trying to recreate the conditions that turned Bruce Wayne into Batman. However, the plan did not work. The assassin hired was Andrea Beaumont, who had been Bruce Wayne's fiancee at an earlier point in his life.[2] Knowing what the murder of his parents had done to Bruce and realizing that she would be dishonoring everything he stood for, Andrea refused to subject another child to the same horrors. Waller realized she had crossed a line, and scrapped the project.[1]

    Shortly after the failed assassination, Matt McGinnis was born to Warren and Mary, an unexpected addition to the project.

    Despite Waller's abandonment of it, Project Batman Beyond was ultimately successful. When Terry was sixteen, Warren McGinnis was murdered on the orders of Derek Powers. A chance meeting between Terry and Bruce Wayne did the rest, and a new Batman was created.[3]

    Discovery

    At some point after Terry became Batman, Bruce became aware of their genetic relationship. He concealed it from Terry, feeling that Warren had raised Terry, and so deserved to be remembered as his true father. He also wanted Terry to be his own man, and not to feel that his fate had been ordained by his birth.

    Bruce's decision to conceal the truth from Terry led to conflict years later. When Bruce, by then in his nineties, began to suffer from kidney failure, Terry, then in his early thirties, was checked for compatibility of being a tissue donor to clone the organs needed and was found to be a perfect match. Surprised, Terry ran a DNA test and found that he was Bruce's genetic son.[1]

    Initially believing that Bruce had been behind the scheme, Terry sought out Waller for answers. Waller then explained the truth to him, and advised him that he was not Bruce's clone, but his son -- his own man, free to choose his own path in life. Armed with this reassurance, Terry freely chose to carry on as Batman.[1]
    Paolo has cleverly taken the storyline and plot of the Cadmus experiment to create a new Batman, and masterfully inserted it into the universe of C van D.

    In "Simon Beyond", Tristan comes face to face with the reality of who he is, and the legacy he is meant to inherit. Paolo supposes that Simon Scott, and all his adventures became too important for the world to not have a Simon Scott in it. Simon Scott had proved influential, and pivotal to the world's security. As Simon was neutered at age eleven, he would never have anyone to fill his shoes once he became too old to have the adventures he once had.

    Melanie Hamilton-Scott, Simon's girlfriend through though C van D's stories, and eventual wife of the hero, could not let Simon's legacy fade away. So with a few of Simon's friends, they genetically created a new Simon. Tristan was the result.

    Through Paolo's story, there are flashbacks, and beautiful memories of Tristan's life. They mirror the episode from Justice League - Unlimited, "Epilogue" in a very satisfying way.

    It proves how terrific an author Paolo is that he was able to adapt the story to so perfectly fit our favorite boy eunuch, Simon Scott by C van D.

    For me, it also proves that Paolo is psychic!

    At the exact time Paolo was writing "Simon Beyond" (a fact I was unaware of) I had just downloaded all the episodes of "Batman Beyond"

    I didn't know why I was suddenly needing to watch this series, but I now know it was Paolo using his Jedi mind control powers on me. I was just getting the idea for my own Batman Beyond / Eunuch Archive story, when "Simon Beyond" appeared fully formed in my mailbox.

    Seriously, how does he do these things?

    I wasn't going to write my story, but after a few emails with Paolo, I was convinced I had to. I don't have the skills to adapt a story the way Paolo does, but I was interested in Terry McGinnis's little brother from the series, Matt McGinnis.

    It donned on me that Matt shared the same DNA as his brother. He too, was the genetic son of Bruce Wayne.

    I had a loose idea that perhaps in the future, there might be a special way to punish young offenders that would conform to the stories of boy-eunuchs here on the Archive. What would that do to a boy with the DNA of Batman in his blood? The part of the story I was running with, was the fact that Warren McGinnis, The father of Terry and Matt, had had his own reproductive material overwritten with the genes of Bruce Wayne. It seemed suspiciously in line with inoculations to make boy eunuchs, and it made sense that Neutersol would exist in the world of Batman Beyond.

    In two days, "The Ghosts of Gotham City" was done. Paolo read it over before it was posted, and added some terrific comic book references, and helped spice up the dialog.

    In tribute to a friend of mine here on the archive, I added one other character. I added the cat-boy, Growler. He's a boy that's been genetically spliced into the form of a leopard. It gave my story a decidedly "Furry" flare.

    For those of you who might nit-pick that such "Furry" story-lines don't belong in the Batman universe, I direct you to Cheetah from the Justice League - Unlimited series. She was a half woman, half cheetah hybrid who went around perpetually naked. She first appeared in the JLU episode, "Injustice for All". She had a very sexually charged moment with Batman.

    It seems to me that the old Warner Brothers Cartoon Series of the DC superheroes was a lot more adult than it looked like on the surface. There was certainly a lot more going on there, than I saw on first viewing. It certainly influenced Paolo and I.

    Maybe you'll be inspired too?
    "Stories are living and dynamic. Stories exist to be exchanged. They are the currency of Human Growth."
    -Jean Houston

    New eunuch stories can be submitted to eafictionarchive (at) gmail (dot) com

  2. #2

    Re: "The Ghosts of Gotham City" and "Simon Beyond" explained.

    "These are not the eunuchs you are looking for."
    http://www.eunuchworld.org/ Stories? Yes, but no one is going to write unless YOU review!

  3. #3

    Re: "The Ghosts of Gotham City" and "Simon Beyond" explained.

    Well, this works as a thank-you thread for both these stories

    Ghosts: Dude, this is a treat, especially after the novel. I will address that story elsewhere, but Ghosts was a total hoot. I have never been able to weave much depth into a story (attention span of a gnat); the effort that goes into a story like yours is NOT a mere three- or five-hour effort, obviously. Thank you for this fun piece of work... I can only hope you had fun writing it. You realize, too, of course, that if you changed the court-ordered dosing to something more mainstream, this project could fly and get tons of fans on many other websites!

    Simon Beyond: What can I say? The ol' Paolo brilliance shines again. I had no idea of the Batman reference and didn't look it up before reading your story, and for me, it was unnecessary background; the story pulled off its plot all on its own. Well, with a little help from you . I've enjoyed your stories since before I joined here (2004 joined, but read as a leach for two or three years first) and you only imrpove with age. At this rate, you'll be out-writing Voltaire by your 60's! . I love your take on the Simon stories, man, you have the feel down pat, but to take it to this futuristic point was just so fun to read. You got skills. An ability to really work a story into a E.A. castration tale shows a dedication I lack. Someday... when I actually get a holiday... I can only hope I work half as much plot and surroundings into a writing for this site as you do.

    Thanks, guys, for making this story archive one of the very best on the web.
    I apologize for my avatar.
    Behold the Asshorn.

  4. #4
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    Re: "The Ghosts of Gotham City" and "Simon Beyond" explained.

    Quote Originally Posted by StefanIsMe View Post
    I can only hope you had fun writing it. You realize, too, of course, that if you changed the court-ordered dosing to something more mainstream, this project could fly and get tons of fans on many other websites!
    Any ideas of what I should change it to? It would have to be something traumatic, and get him kicked out of regular school permanently. I'd like to keep the Joker and Harley Quinn reference when he is dosed, if I could.

    I'm worried if I change it, I'll lose the Warren McGinnis parallel of his reproductive DNA being overwritten, like Mattie's was destroyed.

    I'm open to suggestions.

    And yes, I had a lot of fun writing it.
    "Stories are living and dynamic. Stories exist to be exchanged. They are the currency of Human Growth."
    -Jean Houston

    New eunuch stories can be submitted to eafictionarchive (at) gmail (dot) com

  5. #5

    Re: "The Ghosts of Gotham City" and "Simon Beyond" explained.

    What's wrong with Robin??? We need him back. Batman is actually pretty boring. Bring back Robin!!!
    ][- Ç ]> Heta, Stigma, Sho. The lost, rejected, outcaste and forgotten Greek Letters Society.

    (Sorry no numeric keypad)

  6. #6

    Re: "The Ghosts of Gotham City" and "Simon Beyond" explained.

    Dick Grayson, or Robin as Nightwing?
    (Nightwing's way cooler!)
    Jason Todd?
    Tim Drake?
    Damian Wayne?
    And let's not even address that 'girl' who tried to be Robin.
    http://www.eunuchworld.org/ Stories? Yes, but no one is going to write unless YOU review!

  7. #7
    a warning: I'm a compulsive rambler loveableleopardy's Avatar
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    Re: "The Ghosts of Gotham City" and "Simon Beyond" explained.

    Thank-You HEAPS for the tribute Bat-kiddy :-)
    It is natural that all male/female relationships will be happiness-sadness see-saws. Nevertheless, I will always love Sarah & Kate, and at present I throw that love into The Seriousness Police book project. Let love define you, not destroy you. Oh yes indeedy.

    My only regret will be if Tholly encountering me in life leads to greater negativity in her existence than positivity. For me, encountering her is the best thingy that ever happened to me.

    Fiction is the point.

  8. #8
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    Re: "The Ghosts of Gotham City" and "Simon Beyond" explained.

    Quote Originally Posted by loveableleopardy View Post
    Thank-You HEAPS for the tribute Bat-kiddy :-)
    You're welcome loveableleopardy... Or should I call you "Growler"?

    I know you don't share many traits with my character, but yes, it was a tribute to you. Thank-you for the inspiration. I hope you enjoyed the story.
    "Stories are living and dynamic. Stories exist to be exchanged. They are the currency of Human Growth."
    -Jean Houston

    New eunuch stories can be submitted to eafictionarchive (at) gmail (dot) com

  9. #9
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    Re: "The Ghosts of Gotham City" and "Simon Beyond" explained.

    Seeing if I could get any more inspiration for future "Ghost" stories, I've just started watching the new series, "Young Justice".

    So far, it is a pretty good series. It appears to be set sometime prior to the full events of Justice League - Unlimited. Wally West is still Kid Flash, Dick Greyson is still Robin. It sadly does not have Kevin Conroy voicing Batman, nor does it have Mark Hammil voicing the Joker. It may simply be set in a slightly alternate universe to the one I am familiar with. Still good though.

    I just had to stop watching to post this. In Young Justice, there is a super-villain by the name of Cheshire. It is a female assassin, and completely unlike my half man, half cat splicer pervert in Ghosts of Gotham City, but I had to remark on the similar thinking. It seems there are only so many avenues of thought you can explore, when creating an iconic character for the DC superhero universe.

    I swear. If Growler shows up in the DC universe, I will be quite upset... Or flattered. I haven't decided yet.
    "Stories are living and dynamic. Stories exist to be exchanged. They are the currency of Human Growth."
    -Jean Houston

    New eunuch stories can be submitted to eafictionarchive (at) gmail (dot) com

  10. #10

    Re: "The Ghosts of Gotham City" and "Simon Beyond" explained.

    "YJ" is set on Earth 16, stated as being fairly unused in DC canon. I believe this comes from the JL movie "Crisis on Two Earths" which introduced the idea of multiple realities, much like the Star Trek TNG episode "Parallels". I was not all that impressed with YJ, and have watched both seasons. I absolutely detest their version of AquaLad. On another note, Robin sounds a lot like Zuko from "Avatar: The Last Airbender" on Nick, although it's not the same voice actor. You'll find that Beast Boy in season 2 sounds a lot like Aang, too, but it's not.
    http://www.eunuchworld.org/ Stories? Yes, but no one is going to write unless YOU review!

  11. #11
    New Story Editor Cainanite's Avatar
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    Re: "The Ghosts of Gotham City" and "Simon Beyond" explained.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paolo View Post
    "YJ" is set on Earth 16, stated as being fairly unused in DC canon. I believe this comes from the JL movie "Crisis on Two Earths" which introduced the idea of multiple realities, much like the Star Trek TNG episode "Parallels". I was not all that impressed with YJ, and have watched both seasons. I absolutely detest their version of AquaLad. On another note, Robin sounds a lot like Zuko from "Avatar: The Last Airbender" on Nick, although it's not the same voice actor. You'll find that Beast Boy in season 2 sounds a lot like Aang, too, but it's not.
    I never could get a handle on all the various DC alternate Earths. It has always seemed like a poor writer's excuse for not keeping track of all the important details. For that matter, I've always hated the "never stay dead" aspect DC has had with its characters. I thought when they killed Superman, he should have stayed dead.

    I read a lot of comic books as a kid. It was prior to all the Crisis series debacles. It was easy to keep track of before they tried to merge everything and create alternate Earths. There was the universe of the main hero, which was totally independent. Then there was the universe of team-ups. In the team-up universes, anything could happen. It didn't affect the main hero's comic.

    Someone at DC decided to make everything fit together into one big story. Everything that happened to each character would affect all the other characters. Sounds good on paper, but there was no way to keep track of it all. The stories had to suffer.

    After they merged all the universes, you could no longer just pick up a comic and enjoy the story. You had to know what was going on in all the other comics for the story to make sense. They are still doing that pointless crap.

    Tell the story the way it is meant to be told. Don't force it to fit with a bunch of other unrelated stories just because. Don't force me to read twenty comics just so I can enjoy one.

    DC ought to dump the fused universes idea once and for all. Go back to the way it was and make comic book reading fun again.
    "Stories are living and dynamic. Stories exist to be exchanged. They are the currency of Human Growth."
    -Jean Houston

    New eunuch stories can be submitted to eafictionarchive (at) gmail (dot) com

  12. #12

    Re: "The Ghosts of Gotham City" and "Simon Beyond" explained.

    One particular case in point is Beast Boy, or Changeling (Garfield Logan). They've messed his story up so much that it's impossible to follow.

    I won't spoil it for you, but you're going to meet him in yet ANOTHER incarnation in YJ-S1, and he's a recurring character in S2. Although I admit I like what YJ did to him a lot better than the "bitten by a green monkey" story.
    http://www.eunuchworld.org/ Stories? Yes, but no one is going to write unless YOU review!

  13. #13

    Re: "The Ghosts of Gotham City" and "Simon Beyond" explained.

    Review on: "The Ghosts of Gotham City"

    I am a Batman and Justice League / Justice League Unlimited fan. I really love how you took the existing mythology of the series (the reference to the first eisode of Justice League, where Batman financed the Watchtower by tapping into the R&D Space Budget, was a real hoot). It was also great how you juxtaposed the lives of Bruce Wayne and Matt McGinnis, in that they had to see the corpse of their parent.

    of course, I don't exactly remember if the series actually mentioned who discoverd Warren's corpse, but I consider it an acceptable retcon if this is not the case. All in all, I really liked the story. I liked the premise, the way you "resurrected" Alfred, obliquely mentioned Ace the Bathound, and directly referenced several episodes of the series.

    Three things of note however:

    1. The reference to Harley Quinn and Joker would probably conflict with "Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker", where Joker was definitively killed and Harley Quinn made a cameo appearance as "Nana Harley".
    2. While I realize Growler was placed into the story as a tribute of sorts, his character seems extraneous after his introduction. I felt you could have expounded more on the relationship between him and Matt. As it stands I felt the development of their relationship was unnatural, even stilted - and this applies to Growler's character here. I suppose you were leaving out his backstory for some future
    3. Bruce Wayne was out of character here. I felt he acquiesced way too easily, and his immediate change of his beneficiaries was not anything I would have expected from the man. He does have a couple of former wards to think of.


    I eagerly await your foray into the Young Justice universe. There are tons of story threads that could be exploited here, and given the premise of Season 1 (you'll find out what in the last episode of Season 1), very many ways to justify characters acting out of character and losing bits and pieces of themselves. If you choose Season 2 to build on, the abduction of teenagers would probably provide you with a perfect story vehicle.

  14. #14
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    Re: "The Ghosts of Gotham City" and "Simon Beyond" explained.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas Mcwilliams View Post
    Review on: "The Ghosts of Gotham City"

    I am a Batman and Justice League / Justice League Unlimited fan. I really love how you took the existing mythology of the series (the reference to the first eisode of Justice League, where Batman financed the Watchtower by tapping into the R&D Space Budget, was a real hoot). It was also great how you juxtaposed the lives of Bruce Wayne and Matt McGinnis, in that they had to see the corpse of their parent.

    of course, I don't exactly remember if the series actually mentioned who discoverd Warren's corpse, but I consider it an acceptable retcon if this is not the case. All in all, I really liked the story. I liked the premise, the way you "resurrected" Alfred, obliquely mentioned Ace the Bathound, and directly referenced several episodes of the series.

    Three things of note however:

    1. The reference to Harley Quinn and Joker would probably conflict with "Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker", where Joker was definitively killed and Harley Quinn made a cameo appearance as "Nana Harley".
    2. While I realize Growler was placed into the story as a tribute of sorts, his character seems extraneous after his introduction. I felt you could have expounded more on the relationship between him and Matt. As it stands I felt the development of their relationship was unnatural, even stilted - and this applies to Growler's character here. I suppose you were leaving out his backstory for some future
    3. Bruce Wayne was out of character here. I felt he acquiesced way too easily, and his immediate change of his beneficiaries was not anything I would have expected from the man. He does have a couple of former wards to think of.


    I eagerly await your foray into the Young Justice universe. There are tons of story threads that could be exploited here, and given the premise of Season 1 (you'll find out what in the last episode of Season 1), very many ways to justify characters acting out of character and losing bits and pieces of themselves. If you choose Season 2 to build on, the abduction of teenagers would probably provide you with a perfect story vehicle.
    The reference to the Watchtower, and Ace, the Bat-Dog was all Paolo. He has an excellent way of adding color.

    The Batman Beyond series did not mention who discovered Warren's body. I made the leap, that if they didn't say who did, then it made sense to me than an 8 year old who shared the DNA of Bruce Wayne might be the one. As the series didn't say one way or the other... Artistic Licence to the rescue!

    To address your concerns;

    1. It wasn't the Joker and Harley Quinn, It was a female nurse, by the name of Jackie Napier. The guard was male, and we only ever learn his last name, Quinn. Those characters were there as an homage to Joker and Harley. They were not actually Joker and Harley. Hence, the gender reversal.
    2. I liked Growler a lot. He was fun to write, and though a tribute, I could have involved him a lot more than I did. The story was written spur of the moment. If I ever write a future story in this world, Growler will get a much bigger part.
    3. Yes, Bruce Wayne has other heirs to consider. I did consider that. Dick Grayson has his own money and fortune. He was left a considerable sum from the settlement from his parents deaths. Lucius Fox turned it into a much greater sum with smart investments. Jason Todd died, and came back as Red Hood, an enemy of Batman. Tim Drake left to become a communications engineer. He didn't want much to do with Bruce after that. Though reconciled, I doubt he'd want much from Bruce. Damien Wayne was never addressed in the series or DC animated universe at all, so I happily ignored him. Also, I never said that Bruce didn't leave his former charges well supported in his will. He probably would have. However, I suspect Bruce had already altered his will so Terry would get control of his estate and controlling interests upon his death. He changed it to equal shares Terry and Matt.
      I didn't go into any detail about what the will actually said. The main reason was because it simply wasn't important to the story. I didn't want to interrupt the flow with a detailed accounting of his bequeaths.


    Thank you for your review. I did hope when writing it that someone as equally versed in the DC animated universe as I am, would appreciate it. There are also references to Brian Rogers, Dick Grayson's football playing roommate from Batman: The Animated Series. References to Static Shock (as suggested by Paolo) and a whole bunch of other references very few folk will ever notice.

    What I am surprised no-one has called me out on, is the fact I have Matt lamenting that Batman never saved him, yet in Batman Beyond, Matt is kidnapped by a villain named Stalker, while Terry is watching him. Batman/Terry saves Matt, and brings him home. It was the one bit of continuity I knowingly violated to write my story. I felt it would have more impact, if Matt considered Batman above saving the little people. If I had included that Stalker reference, I would have had to write a whole explanation about that incident in the middle of a whole bunch of other exposition. As the beginning of the story was already exposition heavy, I pretended that incident simply never happened. But, if you are paying attention, I never say it didn't happen.

    I have watched all the episodes of Young Justice at this point. So far, I am not overly thrilled about it. I know it is set in a different universe, but I just can't get my head past all the continuity violations. It violates not just the animated universe I've come to love, but also the comic books, and other animated movies WB has put out. That is a lot of history for me to ignore. When more episodes air, I'll continue to watch and give it the benefit of the doubt.

    I might return to the Batman universe in the future. I have an inkling of a couple ideas. When the inspiration hits, we'll see Gotham's Ghost swing into action again.

    Thanks again.
    "Stories are living and dynamic. Stories exist to be exchanged. They are the currency of Human Growth."
    -Jean Houston

    New eunuch stories can be submitted to eafictionarchive (at) gmail (dot) com

  15. #15

    Re: "The Ghosts of Gotham City" and "Simon Beyond" explained.

    You have to understand that the Young Justice continuity is completely separate from the DCAU (Batman: The Animated Series, The New Batman Adventures, static Shock, Superman: The Animated Series, Batman Beyond, The Zeta Project, Justice League, and Justice League Unlimited). Just as "The Batman" and "Teen Titans" are different. The DC Universe DTVs also exist in a separate bubble universe, with the exception of the Superman-Batman movies, and possibly the two Justice League and Green Lantern features.

    In the Young Justice universe (Earth-16), public Superheroics is a fairly recent phenomenon, with Superman and Batman having no greater than ten years of work experience, so to speak. Suffice to say Young Justice is set in its own continuity, and does not adhere to any comics continuity. And you even have to specify which comics continuity: pre-Crisis, post-Crisis, post-Zero Hour, Flashpoint, or new-52. :P

    I think it is fairly evident by this point that I'm a big fan of Young Justice, no? (I am a participant in the YJ Wikia) Let's leave it at that for now, I guess. If you are whelmed by it, then who am I to judge

    Back to Batman Beyond. I have to say I never noticed that particular bit of continuity violation you mentioned. I don't even remember who Stalker is, to be quite honest. I do, however, remember an episode ("Babel") where we clearly see Terry care deeply for the common folk, to the point of being willing to sacrifice himself. Waller herself said as much in Epilogue, when she compares him to his old man.

    In any case, I chose not to mention that because as fanboyish as kid Matt is about Batman, it is perfectly understandable for his memories to be scrambled after his castration. Memories are notoriously fickle that way, plus he's only a kid - fourteen by your story's conclusion. That kind of continuity violation is something I am more than happy to handwave away in favor of a more dramatic story.

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