Survey question Gay, Straight, Bi or Other?

[nullo2b1964]

I prefer thinking of myself as MSM (a man who prefers to have sex with men).

The term "gay" has become too politicized for my taste, and it tends to conjure up stereotypes that have been put in place by the arts and media.

[symempathy]

I prefer thinking of myself as MSM (a man who prefers to have sex with men).

The term "gay" has become too politicized for my taste, and it tends to conjure up stereotypes that have been put in place by the arts and media.

In your opinion, does secondary sex characteristic play an important role in determining if a person is a man or a woman? I mean can you be attracted to a person who has deep voice, masculine body frame, and hairy face except that the person has a vagina?

[nullorchis]

In your opinion, does secondary sex characteristic play an important role in determining if a person is a man or a woman? I mean can you be attracted to a person who has deep voice, masculine body frame, and hairy face except that the person has a vagina?

Oh for pity sakes. Don't try to mentalize emotion. Go with what you feel.
It does not need to make sense. Society burdens us with what is suppose to make sense (according to society). As long as you are not harming yourself or anyone else, if you are connecting with another person, go with the flow and enjoy. Just don't make too much of it. Sometimes it might last a lifetime. Often it will not. Such is life. One day at a time. And enjoy.

[hkeunuch]

Oh for pity sakes. Don't try to mentalize emotion. Go with what you feel. It does not need to make sense.... Go with the flow and enjoy. Just don't make too much of it.... One day at a time. And enjoy.

Hi Minh,

I assume you are Vietnamese(?) Hope you don't mind my nosing into your background and upbringing. Well, I'm Chinese raised under the roof of a fundamentalist Christian family. So, I do understand what you mean about our cultures being not so open about sex.

I really like what nullorchis wrote as quoted above. I couldn't have said it better.

Being twice your age, I can certainly appreciate his points: live every day to the fullest, follow your heart rather than what you have been told you should do. Having seen 2 of my peers suddenly go into Cardiac Care Units, one barely squeaking out of the CCU alive, I'd say, don't keep waiting for the "right man" whoever such a person might be. Once you're in the habit of looking for the "perfect man," you could easily spend your whole life searching, like so many of my gay friends. I have friends who kept saying this partner just isn't right, or that. My response is always, take out a mirror and look at yourself. How perfect are you even in your own eyes. Be reasonable. Nobody is perfect. That's what make life colorful and infinitely interesting. As they say, beauty (and perfection) is in the eyes of the beholder. So, we just got to live with the good and the bad parts of any person.

That's just my own way of life. I believe because of this attitude on partners, I have been blessed by several very long term and satisfying relationships, the current being the longest.

I also apply the same view on life to nullo2b1964's comment about use of the term "gay" and "MSM." I just won't sweat it about how we are being pigeonholed, or stereotyped. Just like the words "queers" or "homos," I just don't bother to get offended. I'd look at the context to understand how the word was specifically meant when being used before deciding if there is any offense intended.

The two times I had been with the M2F transsexuals, both of them were prostitutes in Thailand who had started hormonal treatments since early teens and had not had any surgeries of any kind yet. I had no intention of falling in love with them because I seeked encounters with them just to satisfy my curiosity in what I might turn myself into, before I decide on starting Androcur. As we share nothing in common, I felt absolutely no love involved at all. I enjoyed the experience and got my answers ... period.

As to your question that had I met some guy I liked, and later found that he had a vagina inside his pants, my guess is I would not hesitate to continue to nurture whatever relationship we had. He too had to accept my being a chemical eunuch and not exactly spontaneous to do penetrative sex, if at all. (Never tried since I became a eunuch.)

I have a fairly wide range in what I like in facial and body types. (To be honest to ourselves, we got to admit that our meeting any new person almost always start with only skin deep qualities, right? That's just whether we would want to know more below the skin afterwards.)

For me to fall in love means us both being able to share many things in our lives together, from our lifestyles, attitudes, likes and dislikes, to values and judgments. I had broken up with a completely sexually compatible partner just because we could not enjoy the same foods together.

After passing these criteria do I start worrying about sex -- males with a hard penis, eunuchs with an always-soft penis, completely smooth nullos, or male looking person with a vagina. (Before becoming a eunuch, I was versatile, often enjoying both top and bottom positions in the same night.)

Sorry if I sound preachy. But I hope my analysis of what is important to me serves as reference for your search of your own self.

[symempathy]

I really appreciate your advice. Thank you

Hi Minh,

I assume you are Vietnamese(?) Hope you don't mind my nosing into your background and upbringing. Well, I'm Chinese raised under the roof of a fundamentalist Christian family. So, I do understand what you mean about our cultures being not so open about sex.

Yes, I'm Vietnamese. You're not nosy.
Are you Chinese Chinese or Chinese American? I don't mean to stereotype, but because you are so open-minded, I can't help assuming you grew up in the US.

Being twice your age, I can certainly appreciate his points: live every day to the fullest, follow your heart rather than what you have been told you should do. Having seen 2 of my peers suddenly go into Cardiac Care Units, one barely squeaking out of the CCU alive, I'd say, don't keep waiting for the "right man" whoever such a person might be. Once you're in the habit of looking for the "perfect man," you could easily spend your whole life searching, like so many of my gay friends. I have friends who kept saying this partner just isn't right, or that. My response is always, take out a mirror and look at yourself. How perfect are you even in your own eyes. Be reasonable. Nobody is perfect. That's what make life colorful and infinitely interesting. As they say, beauty (and perfection) is in the eyes of the beholder. So, we just got to live with the good and the bad parts of any person.

I do understand your point. Perhaps you misunderstood me. I won't be surprised because English is not my first language. Looks like I have to work hard to comprehend my English.
I'm not looking for Mr.Perfect. I want Mr.Right. In fact, having a perfect man around me probably makes me nervous because I have to keep up being a perfect partner as well.

I don't expect my man to text me every hour and say "I love you". In fact, I don't even expect him to say "I love you". Growing up in a family where I have never heard that phrase from my parents, aunts, and uncles, I'm used to it. As long as he loves me and is faithful to me. That is enough.

I don't need my man to take care of me financially, nor do I want him to prepare a morning breakfast for me every day. I don't care if he ever buys me any gift. After all, I'm not a physical gift giver myself. I give the people I care about my heart, and I hope they can do the same. If my man has his way to express his love to me, let him be.

All I want is his love, respect, and faithfulness.
Because you're old enough to be my father, do you think I'm idealistic or naive to expect a man like that?

That's just my own way of life. I believe because of this attitude on partners, I have been blessed by several very long term and satisfying relationships, the current being the longest.

As to your question that had I met some guy I liked, and later found that he had a vagina inside his pants, my guess is I would not hesitate to continue to nurture whatever relationship we had. He too had to accept my being a chemical eunuch and not exactly spontaneous to do penetrative sex, if at all. (Never tried since I became a eunuch.)

I don't know about your guy. It shouldn't be a problem to me. As long as my man doesn't refuse physical affection, I don't really care whether he is capable of doing intercourse.

I have a fairly wide range in what I like in facial and body types. (To be honest to ourselves, we got to admit that our meeting any new person almost always start with only skin deep qualities, right? That's just whether we would want to know more below the skin afterwards.)

As much as it makes me feel embarrassed, you couldn't be more right.

For me to fall in love means us both being able to share many things in our lives together, from our lifestyles, attitudes, likes and dislikes, to values and judgments. I had broken up with a completely sexually compatible partner just because we could not enjoy the same foods together.

Forgive me if I sound judgmental. Why does food become a problem in your relationship? If you had broken up with your man because he hurt you or lied to you, I would be able to understand.

[punkypink]

Oh for pity sakes. Don't try to mentalize emotion. Go with what you feel.
It does not need to make sense. Society burdens us with what is suppose to make sense (according to society). As long as you are not harming yourself or anyone else, if you are connecting with another person, go with the flow and enjoy. Just don't make too much of it. Sometimes it might last a lifetime. Often it will not. Such is life. One day at a time. And enjoy.

Just like how most lesbians go with the flow and immediately reject any girl outright with the "wrong" genitals?

Yea going with the flow harms nobody else. Heh.

[nullo2b1964]

In your opinion, does secondary sex characteristic play an important role in determining if a person is a man or a woman? I mean can you be attracted to a person who has deep voice, masculine body frame, and hairy face except that the person has a vagina?

Personally, I can. But on the other hand, I'd like to BE the person with the deep voice, masculine body frame, hairy face and vagina...but I'd like to keep my testicles. In other words, I'd want to have my cake and eat it, too.

[hkeunuch]

Yes, I'm Vietnamese. You're not nosy.
Are you Chinese Chinese or Chinese American?

Yes I am Chinese American.

I do understand your point. Perhaps you misunderstood me.

Your English is fine. I was jumping to conclusion. You had asked repeatedly if I would be able to continue being attracted to a person after finding out that the guy has a vagina. I was assuming that you got a bit hung up on this one physical part only. I just wanted to echo nullorchis's comment to live your life to the fullest possible, and at least for me, loving someone means sharing my life with that someone. These criteria came first whiling selecting who to date and settle down with, well beyond any talk of love, sexual compatibility, etc.

Your description of what you are looking for is generally fair and reasonable enough. There are 3 parts I might flag for your own reflection:

(1) Not looking for the perfect man, just looking for the right man. To me, the difference is too sides of the same coin. The right man (for me) means he has to fit my criteria perfectly.

(2) He just has to be faithful to me. We need to be realistic about this, and work together amongst the two of you about the monogamous relationship, and how both might grow and evolve after ten years, twenty years. I am not saying monogamous relationships won't work. But too many breakups happened over this issue, and the reality is that many people, especially the genetic males, when the testosterone calls, even with the best intentions to keep up one's end of a monogamous relationship, one may still slip. Back to my ... nobody is perfect, and are you? For myself, we started out in a monogamous relationship. And around the 7-year itch mark, we talked about our physical attraction to other attractive people in our lives and how to deal with it, and how to deal with cases if one of us should do something about such attraction. There is no right answer here. It is whatever works best for both partners. The key is to make sure we are open about communicating our feelings, limits to each other first, and to agree to openly review what we talked about once in a while when we grow and change.

I don't know about your guy. It shouldn't be a problem to me. As long as my man doesn't refuse physical affection, I don't really care whether he is capable of doing intercourse.

(3) Again, there is no one size fits all. Everybody has different values. To me, while mutual love and attraction is the basic foundation of my relationships, how we could move beyond after the "honeymoon" period and last for the next decade or two is whether we still enjoy each other's company outside the bedroom. To me, sharing and enjoying different kinds of food is a major part. Living a generally healthful lifestyle is another, i.e., no smoking, no heavy drinking, enjoying healthy drinks and foods, general attention to physical well being like exercising (but not to be model-like gym rat). Etc. Etc. Everyone is different. There is no right or wrong. Just whether the person who is to share his life with me would love me only when we are in bed together, or we can still love every minute of our lives together even outside the bedroom.

I can keep those I can only be attracted to while in bed but not beyond as one night stands.

[symempathy]

Your description of what you are looking for is generally fair and reasonable enough. There are 3 parts I might flag for your own reflection:

(1) Not looking for the perfect man, just looking for the right man. To me, the difference is too sides of the same coin. The right man (for me) means he has to fit my criteria perfectly.

(2) He just has to be faithful to me. We need to be realistic about this, and work together amongst the two of you about the monogamous relationship, and how both might grow and evolve after ten years, twenty years. I am not saying monogamous relationships won't work. But too many breakups happened over this issue, and the reality is that many people, especially the genetic males, when the testosterone calls, even with the best intentions to keep up one's end of a monogamous relationship, one may still slip. Back to my ... nobody is perfect, and are you? For myself, we started out in a monogamous relationship. And around the 7-year itch mark, we talked about our physical attraction to other attractive people in our lives and how to deal with it, and how to deal with cases if one of us should do something about such attraction. There is no right answer here. It is whatever works best for both partners. The key is to make sure we are open about communicating our feelings, limits to each other first, and to agree to openly review what we talked about once in a while when we grow and change.

I don't know about your guy. It shouldn't be a problem to me. As long as my man doesn't refuse physical affection, I don't really care whether he is capable of doing intercourse.

(3) Again, there is no one size fits all. Everybody has different values. To me, while mutual love and attraction is the basic foundation of my relationships, how we could move beyond after the "honeymoon" period and last for the next decade or two is whether we still enjoy each other's company outside the bedroom. To me, sharing and enjoying different kinds of food is a major part. Living a generally healthful lifestyle is another, i.e., no smoking, no heavy drinking, enjoying healthy drinks and foods, general attention to physical well being like exercising (but not to be model-like gym rat). Etc. Etc. Everyone is different. There is no right or wrong. Just whether the person who is to share his life with me would love me only when we are in bed together, or we can still love every minute of our lives together even outside the bedroom.

I can keep those I can only be attracted to while in bed but not beyond as one night stands.

Thank you for your advice. I don't know if I can be as wise as you are when I reach your age.
You couldn't be more right about men's testosterone. I feel it too. I don't want to sound like a saint, but I have never felt the need to catch up with other people, gay or straight. Most people whom I asked about their love life told me that they had given up their virginity when they were very young. One of those is Vietnamese and came to the US around my age (18); one grew up in Japan; another one grew up in Myanmar, and both of them are about 10 years older than I am.

It's strange that those 3 people had quite a few girlfriends and screwed them around before they got serious. All other American born or raised people have many girlfriends and boyfriends, too. Nevertheless, when they told me about their experience with their lovers, they tended to do so with a sentimental tone. They had sex with and loved one boyfriend/girlfriend at a time. Then things did not work out; they broke up, and they moved on. The point is they have sex in the context of love. That inspires me not to rush into looking for someone just for sex.

Sorry for digressing the topic. I hope that I can love someone with all my heart, yet I can keep myself as rational as you are because my idealistic perception of love and relationship may hurt me in the future.

[Buddy666]

Yes I am Chinese American.

Your English is fine. I was jumping to conclusion. You had asked repeatedly if I would be able to continue being attracted to a person after finding out that the guy has a vagina. I was assuming that you got a bit hung up on this one physical part only. I just wanted to echo nullorchis's comment to live your life to the fullest possible, and at least for me, loving someone means sharing my life with that someone. These criteria came first whiling selecting who to date and settle down with, well beyond any talk of love, sexual compatibility, etc.

Your description of what you are looking for is generally fair and reasonable enough. There are 3 parts I might flag for your own reflection:

(1) Not looking for the perfect man, just looking for the right man. To me, the difference is too sides of the same coin. The right man (for me) means he has to fit my criteria perfectly.

(2) He just has to be faithful to me. We need to be realistic about this, and work together amongst the two of you about the monogamous relationship, and how both might grow and evolve after ten years, twenty years. I am not saying monogamous relationships won't work. But too many breakups happened over this issue, and the reality is that many people, especially the genetic males, when the testosterone calls, even with the best intentions to keep up one's end of a monogamous relationship, one may still slip. Back to my ... nobody is perfect, and are you? For myself, we started out in a monogamous relationship. And around the 7-year itch mark, we talked about our physical attraction to other attractive people in our lives and how to deal with it, and how to deal with cases if one of us should do something about such attraction. There is no right answer here. It is whatever works best for both partners. The key is to make sure we are open about communicating our feelings, limits to each other first, and to agree to openly review what we talked about once in a while when we grow and change.

I don't know about your guy. It shouldn't be a problem to me. As long as my man doesn't refuse physical affection, I don't really care whether he is capable of doing intercourse.

(3) Again, there is no one size fits all. Everybody has different values. To me, while mutual love and attraction is the basic foundation of my relationships, how we could move beyond after the "honeymoon" period and last for the next decade or two is whether we still enjoy each other's company outside the bedroom. To me, sharing and enjoying different kinds of food is a major part. Living a generally healthful lifestyle is another, i.e., no smoking, no heavy drinking, enjoying healthy drinks and foods, general attention to physical well being like exercising (but not to be model-like gym rat). Etc. Etc. Everyone is different. There is no right or wrong. Just whether the person who is to share his life with me would love me only when we are in bed together, or we can still love every minute of our lives together even outside the bedroom.

I can keep those I can only be attracted to while in bed but not beyond as one night stands.

That is beautiful and I could not have said it better myself! Love is love and there is no reason to make it complicated with too many rules. Good luck!

[hkeunuch]

Wow! Gee thanks for all the kind comments.

You know what? My conservative father gave me one bit of advice that threw me off balance -- when first dating, try really hard to date more than one person at a time. I was thinking if he had gotten a bit too old when he taught me that. I was wondering if that was a licence to promiscuity, from the mouth of my old conservative father who once made a big fuss for me never to play with myself?!?!

Well, Minh, after dating and breaking up a few times, it finally dawned on me the wisdom in my father's advice.

First off, his dating is pure dating, no sex before marriage type.

By dating more than one person at the very beginning when I barely knew the persons, I was forced to keep my perspectives open. I don't take some near stranger's reciprocation of my initial (and purely skin deep) attraction as "true love." I cannot mix up initial puppy love as long-lasting love. I don't confuse initial romance as love.

We dated. We spent time to get to know each other. We did a lot of wining and dining, and did whatever else we enjoyed. I also made a point to see which one enjoyed some of my more quirky habits. (I might add, I also added time in the sack to the "getting to know each other" process too, probably at my father's deep disapproval had he known about that.)

I did make sure not to promise or hint at "forever love" during this period. A guy pronounced his love to me, and I quickly tried to point out that we had been together for 2 weeks only and hardly know each other.

And over a few months of getting to know each guy better, I become more sure as to whom I actually could possibly spend the rest of my life. Then, I have to extricate myself from the other affair, and announce my vows with the person who has the best fit with me.

So, a bit contrary to what you concluded, I actually did fool around first instead of getting too serious first.

That is not really wisdom. That's just practical, knowing the weaknesses of human nature, including our own. That finally all sound just like my father -- an unapologetically pragmatic guy.

[punkypink]

Personally, I can. But on the other hand, I'd like to BE the person with the deep voice, masculine body frame, hairy face and vagina...but I'd like to keep my testicles. In other words, I'd want to have my cake and eat it, too.

What we like tends not to be justification enough to discriminate. If you can be attracted to a person even though their physical characteristics are not what you like, then a lot of lesbians need to take a page from your book and stop being selfish idiots.

[eunucherotic]

I am a gay male, interested in becoming at least a enunuch, and eventually undergoing complete nullification. Do I wish to become a woman? No. I enjoy the male body...I just do not believe genitals are needed anymore, since I am soon to become a permanent 24/7 slave to my new Master. And yes, I've entered the world of BDSM -- much less on the SM however.

[Cuckolder]

If you really decide to live together with a dominant male and become the 24/7 passive object for him...well, than it may sound logic to go all the way to be a nullo. The only point to think of before...it´s a not reversable step that should be thought twice...But if you are sure and your "master" is really loving you, you should have an enjoyable time...

[slickotter]

I'm masculine, versatile, exclusively gay and very into penectomy. For me, wanting to be dickless has no causal link with how masculine or feminine I want to be, what sexual positions I enjoy, what role playing scenarios I like or who I like to have sex with. If I ever lose my dick, I know it will have consequences for some categories, but it will not change the facts that I am both masculine and gay. I am really into the idea of butch guys without cocks.