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Thread: Do we need more energy in this country

  1. #1

    Do we need more energy in this country

    Every day we see congress telling us we have all the energy in this country we need but that isent what we the people see.I say we need to get the energy for this country any way we can not paying the middle east billions for energy we have in this great land.I feel congress is telling us we need alternative energy and thats all we need to run this country.This is slowly choking our country and this winter people will freeze because heating oil will be to expencive.Food will also be high and all because we have not kept up with our energy we use.I think people in here beleave I only like Republicans but thats not what I am about.This adminstration has not made energy important and they have this mess on their watch.
    my concern is the love of others

  2. #2

    Re: Do we need more energy in this country

    We use far more energy in this country than we really need to. People don't want to change but eventually they will have to. Even if we find and develop enough oil deposits to become energy independent, it is still a finite resource and will eventually run out.
    "To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail." Mark Twain

  3. #3
    The Rest of the Story Riverwind's Avatar
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    Re: Do we need more energy in this country

    We need more energy in this country, we need clean renewable energy, we need to make oil obsolete, this is doable, in fact we are doing it already just not to the extent that we must take it.

    River
    He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security.

    Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays instead of serving you if he sacrifices it to your opinion.
    Edmund Burke

  4. #4
    radar
    Guest

    Re: Do we need more energy in this country

    The US is unusual among Western nations in that the distances that must be traversed for the business of the country to function properly are quite large. Europe can get by with much less energy usage on that basis alone, but Western Europe has the additional advantage that its climate is largely moderated by the Gulf Stream, so doesn't experience nearly the same heating and cooling demands as most of the US (Scandinavia and Eastern Europe are another matter, of course). Still, these differences render any attempts at direct comparison specious, though I do agree that there are cultural issues at play when things like how big a car one drives or how high one sets his thermostat are considered.

    The point is that the US cannot simply adopt European style measures to solve its energy shortage through conservation alone; there must be an addition to supply as well. It's fine to say that geothermal, wind and solar technologies should be exploited to fill the gap, but the fact is that these technologies largely remain either much less efficient or much less cost effective than fossil fuels, and until that balance changes, people aren't going to be switching to them in any great numbers. It's wonderful if a wealthy or upper middle class homeowner wants to feel better by putting solar panels on his roof, but the average Joe isn't going to follow suit when he's looking at a 15-20 year payback, and he just doesn't have the cash. And it's elitist to insist that he should when doing so could cost his kids decent clothes or a college education.

    What we need is something that every administration and every Congress since the 1960's have failed to give us: a coherent and comprehensive energy policy. Instead, political ideology has stood in the way, and our national security is now in grave danger because of it. We have, in effect, forced ourselves to finance those who seek to destroy us. I don't think such a policy would be all that difficult to construct if both sides, but particularly the left, would give a little and compromise. For my part, I'd like to see a two-pronged policy, one aimed at the near term and the other at 10-20 years down the road.

    The immediate need, and the policy favored by the political right, is to reduce or eliminate our dependence on Middle East oil, and start using our own resources. In the near term, that means opening up the outer continental shelf (OCS) and the small region at ANWR to exploration and production. Contrary to the assertions of environmental activists, the technology is now such that environmental risks are extremely small, and debacles like the Santa Barbara spill vastly less likely. We can also produce oil from the shale deposits in the west, and we can revive the coal industry with the new, clean burning technologies now available. And for God's sake, let's start building refineries again! All it takes is for the government to get out of the way, and it will happen. But that's only the short term solution, not a viable long term policy, since it will ultimately result in the same sort of crisis we're facing now, when reserves become depleted.

    For the long term, there's no reason why we can't invest in the technologies that the left favors: geothermal, wind and solar. But doing so must not force these technologies at great expense on an unwilling public. Instead, simply fund their development, and they will be adopted willingly when they have become cost effective and the marketplace is ready for them. We also have to do a long, hard re-examination of nuclear power, and stop with the knee-jerk fear mongering. Three Mile Island (from which I live downrange) was scary, but it was a fluke, and again, the control technology today is so vastly ahead of anything that was available in the 1970's that new plants would be orders of magnitude safer. This is the one place where copying European policy would be have major benefit to America, and there's no reason why, 20 years from now, we can't be generating 70-80% of our electric power via nuclear plants.

    What bothers me about the inaction of the current Congress is that for political and ideological reasons, Pelosi, Reid and company aren't even letting bills into committee if they would open up domestic fossil fuel production. I consider that a crime against the American people. If Bush is impeachable for his Iraq policy, then these two are certainly deserving of recall or expulsion for their intractable position on energy. Were our politicians the leaders they claim to be, they would actually start dealing with each other, and propose something that takes into account both short AND long term solutions.

  5. #5

    Re: Do we need more energy in this country

    Many of the things you say are true, but we can still do much to reduce our consumption of energy. For instance, during your commute how many vehicles do you see with more than one occupant? We could nearly half our personal consumption of Gasoline and Diesel. This would also reduce the pressure on refineries and prices at the pump would fall dramatically. Additionally the cost of the fuel used is shared by more people.

    To sum it it up. Carpooling = less dependence on foreign oil, fewer refineries, lower gas prices, less of your personal money spent on fuel, less of your money spent on vehicle maintenance, fewer cars on the road which means fewer traffic jams.... and that just off the top of my head.

    BUT... people won't do it because it isn't convenient, and their not comfortable with having some one else in their SUV. Well guess what. The paradigm shift is fast approaching. We can say this call to conserve resources is a lefty liberal greeny weeny thing to do, but the reality is when the pain in our right rear pocket exceeds the pain of carpooling..... WE ARE GOING TO BE CARPOOLING.
    "To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail." Mark Twain

  6. #6
    Blaise
    Guest

    Re: Do we need more energy in this country

    Quote Originally Posted by radar View Post
    The US is unusual among Western nations in that the distances that must be traversed for the business of the country to function properly are quite large. Europe can get by with much less energy usage on that basis alone, but Western Europe has the additional advantage that its climate is largely moderated by the Gulf Stream, so doesn't experience nearly the same heating and cooling demands as most of the US (Scandinavia and Eastern Europe are another matter, of course). Still, these differences render any attempts at direct comparison specious, though I do agree that there are cultural issues at play when things like how big a car one drives or how high one sets his thermostat are considered.

    The point is that the US cannot simply adopt European style measures to solve its energy shortage through conservation alone; there must be an addition to supply as well. It's fine to say that geothermal, wind and solar technologies should be exploited to fill the gap, but the fact is that these technologies largely remain either much less efficient or much less cost effective than fossil fuels, and until that balance changes, people aren't going to be switching to them in any great numbers. It's wonderful if a wealthy or upper middle class homeowner wants to feel better by putting solar panels on his roof, but the average Joe isn't going to follow suit when he's looking at a 15-20 year payback, and he just doesn't have the cash. And it's elitist to insist that he should when doing so could cost his kids decent clothes or a college education.

    What we need is something that every administration and every Congress since the 1960's have failed to give us: a coherent and comprehensive energy policy. Instead, political ideology has stood in the way, and our national security is now in grave danger because of it. We have, in effect, forced ourselves to finance those who seek to destroy us. I don't think such a policy would be all that difficult to construct if both sides, but particularly the left, would give a little and compromise. For my part, I'd like to see a two-pronged policy, one aimed at the near term and the other at 10-20 years down the road.

    The immediate need, and the policy favored by the political right, is to reduce or eliminate our dependence on Middle East oil, and start using our own resources. In the near term, that means opening up the outer continental shelf (OCS) and the small region at ANWR to exploration and production. Contrary to the assertions of environmental activists, the technology is now such that environmental risks are extremely small, and debacles like the Santa Barbara spill vastly less likely. We can also produce oil from the shale deposits in the west, and we can revive the coal industry with the new, clean burning technologies now available. And for God's sake, let's start building refineries again! All it takes is for the government to get out of the way, and it will happen. But that's only the short term solution, not a viable long term policy, since it will ultimately result in the same sort of crisis we're facing now, when reserves become depleted.

    For the long term, there's no reason why we can't invest in the technologies that the left favors: geothermal, wind and solar. But doing so must not force these technologies at great expense on an unwilling public. Instead, simply fund their development, and they will be adopted willingly when they have become cost effective and the marketplace is ready for them. We also have to do a long, hard re-examination of nuclear power, and stop with the knee-jerk fear mongering. Three Mile Island (from which I live downrange) was scary, but it was a fluke, and again, the control technology today is so vastly ahead of anything that was available in the 1970's that new plants would be orders of magnitude safer. This is the one place where copying European policy would be have major benefit to America, and there's no reason why, 20 years from now, we can't be generating 70-80% of our electric power via nuclear plants.

    What bothers me about the inaction of the current Congress is that for political and ideological reasons, Pelosi, Reid and company aren't even letting bills into committee if they would open up domestic fossil fuel production. I consider that a crime against the American people. If Bush is impeachable for his Iraq policy, then these two are certainly deserving of recall or expulsion for their intractable position on energy. Were our politicians the leaders they claim to be, they would actually start dealing with each other, and propose something that takes into account both short AND long term solutions.
    In a way, I expect markets to sort out how we go with these problems. I recall that I babbled incessantly during the early seventies about alternative transportation. I was maybe wrong about some of what I argued, but I think I was right on other counts. The things is that the market has not yet supported what I advocate.

    I do not undertand wny most of our electric power is not generated by nuclear plants. My brother the nuclear engineer began with alternative sources of electric power. There are fundamental issues with all of them--solar, geothermal, wind, and hydroelectric. I think that the waste product problem is important but we forget that refinaries add more radiation to the environment than do nuclear plants. Hydroelectric power generation may be clean but it cause horrible damage to the environment. Solar power has not been a cheap or simple as we thought it would be. Wind generation required machines that cost a lot to create and maintain--at least, they have cost a lot to maintain.

    We are a large country, but look at Oregon for models of what could work in other places.

    It is time for coherence, not more ideology.

  7. #7
    The Rest of the Story Riverwind's Avatar
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    Re: Do we need more energy in this country

    The oil company's already have vast amounts off the coast on the shelf to drill on, they don't need more. The real problem there is to convince all those community's on the coast that oil wells in there back yard are OK and safe. You see everybody is for it they just don't want it in there back yard. Funny thing about coastal community's, most of them are rich. Now if you can convince lets say, Santa Barbara, California to allow drilling off there coast I will sign on because hell will freeze before SB lets that happen.

    I think taking out one of the big oil speculators every day and shoot him would be a good idea, I think the oil price would drop like a rock. (bit of humor).

    I am not sure what the answer is other then digging new holes in the ground now with a pay back in 15 years is not the answer, its just putting off the problem for another generation. We need to make Oil a fossil not a fossil fuel.

    Nuclear plants sure I am all for it, just as soon as they figure out what there going to do with all that waist. It has the same problem as oil wells, nobody wants them in there back yard either.

    The answer is, clean renewable sources of energy. Oil, coal, Nuclear are not the answer.

    Is is going to be hard, yes,will many of us suffer for it, I feel it already. We can no longer put a band aid on the problem, we need to fix the problem.

    You said oil spills are a thing of the past, well today there cleaning a oil spill in the Mississippi River.

    Nothing is unsinkable.


    River
    He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security.

    Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays instead of serving you if he sacrifices it to your opinion.
    Edmund Burke

  8. #8
    Blaise
    Guest

    Re: Do we need more energy in this country

    When the good people of Santa Barbara let us drill within eye sight of their beaches, I too will be onboard for offshore drilling. The little shit our president pushes this just because he is nothing but a sadistic bully. The creep has no substance.

  9. #9
    Blaise
    Guest

    Re: Do we need more energy in this country

    Quote Originally Posted by Riverwind View Post
    The oil company's already have vast amounts off the coast on the shelf to drill on, they don't need more. The real problem there is to convince all those community's on the coast that oil wells in there back yard are OK and safe. You see everybody is for it they just don't want it in there back yard. Funny thing about coastal community's, most of them are rich. Now if you can convince lets say, Santa Barbara, California to allow drilling off there coast I will sign on because hell will freeze before SB lets that happen.

    I think taking out one of the big oil speculators every day and shoot him would be a good idea, I think the oil price would drop like a rock. (bit of humor).

    I am not sure what the answer is other then digging new holes in the ground now with a pay back in 15 years is not the answer, its just putting off the problem for another generation. We need to make Oil a fossil not a fossil fuel.

    Nuclear plants sure I am all for it, just as soon as they figure out what there going to do with all that waist. It has the same problem as oil wells, nobody wants them in there back yard either.

    The answer is, clean renewable sources of energy. Oil, coal, Nuclear are not the answer.

    Is is going to be hard, yes,will many of us suffer for it, I feel it already. We can no longer put a band aid on the problem, we need to fix the problem.

    You said oil spills are a thing of the past, well today there cleaning a oil spill in the Mississippi River.

    Nothing is unsinkable.


    River
    Apparently, no one has a good idea about how to contain and clean the spill on the Mississippi River. I tend to agree with you, except that I am open to looking at nuclear again. Much of the waste came from our zeal to create nuclear weapons. But again who knows what to do with the mess in Washington, Colorado, and South Carolina?

    Eleven years ago, I visited the reactor that was supposed to power airplanes. The junk is on the side of the road in Idaho. It is just on the side of the road with a interpretation park around it. It is not radioactive, of course, but you shake your head and wonder.

  10. #10

    reading guy Re: Do we need more energy in this country

    If anyone gets Smithsounien < I hope I spelled that right >in one of the back issues is astiry of an oil field in Montana,western North Dakota and western South Dakota it is sied to be greater then the North Slop and Off Shore together IT is a little more work to get to you drell down first then to the side to get to it. Next most of us who heat with oil aren't gone to be able ot do anything about it,so if were gone save any oil were gone to have to get it some wear else. Railroads are one most efficient way to move goods and people.Most long hall goods should be hall by rail and passengers under 500 miles should go by rail as well. Liegth rail,buses taxies and personal transport under 50 to 75 miles should be used.Air craft used for transport of pssengers of over 1000 miles or more and only hi priority or perishable goods should fly all auther should go by rail to save fuel.Were passible the railroad could be electrified to save even more fuel. 20% of what is spent by government cival air could biuld a first class rail system!__________________Ernie of Maine_____________

  11. #11

    Re: Do we need more energy in this country

    The thing we seam to forget is oil is used for more then just filling their cars.Ever here of plastics feterlizer nylon to name a few.Our food and gas is going up because our dollar is dropping and this is because we are sending our money to oil rich countries that are against us and also China.We often here it will take 10 to 15 years to get the oil flowing into this economy.Trust me if we put everything this country has to get things moving it will be more like 3 to 8 years.If all we do is fight each other we wont get anything done kind of like we do things now.If we had drilled when Bush first came into office like he wanted things wouldent be as bad as they are today.We cant wait until something comes along that will save us but we can do all we can to save us.
    my concern is the love of others

  12. #12

    Re: Do we need more energy in this country

    Quote Originally Posted by sag111 View Post
    If we had drilled when Bush first came into office like he wanted things wouldent be as bad as they are today.We cant wait until something comes along that will save us but we can do all we can to save us.
    I seem to recall there was a republican majority just about every where in government during the greater part of GWB's presidency. If he couldn't get what wanted done then, back when he had all that going for him, then maybe the problem isn't the democrats.

    At some point the Republicans who have held the rains of power for most of the last eight years need to own up to their part in creating this mess. Other wise they have to admit they have been completely ineffectual as leaders.
    "To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail." Mark Twain

  13. #13

    Re: Do we need more energy in this country

    I find it amusing the speculators are getting so much of the blame for this. Goes to show the power of the media over the ill-informed general public. The same general public that somehow believed John Kerry shirked his duty by "learning" from the Swift Boat Political Ads.

    Speculation is little more than a bet placed, just like is Las Vegas, you place a bet on the outcome of a game or some other event that is to happen in the future. The bets don't change the outcome of the game (unless you are an ardent conspiracy theorist). The same is true about speculation, yes it can drive a frenzy sometimes, but that is very short lived, the realities of actual pricing is still on the simple economic principal of supply and demand.

    Anyone notice how oil has begun to decline? Could the be the efforts of this country to reduce consumption (because it costs so much), and anyone also notice that at the time China began to shut down much of it's economic machine in preparation for the Games to reduce pollution?

    The speculators didn't go away, they didn't stop betting, but oil is declining anyway...

    No we don't need more energy, we do need better, more sustainable energy for sure, the idea we've allowed ourselves to be so energy dependent is a shame. What we really need to do is reduce waste in all aspects of our day-to-day lives, it's about efficiency, not adding capacity. My old A/C system drew up to 30 AMPs of energy, the new one cools better, is quieter, and draws only 6 AMPS, there are probably a dozen more examples in your every day life. I still have air conditioning, we don't have to change our lifestyles, but there are ways we can conserve.

  14. #14
    The Rest of the Story Riverwind's Avatar
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    Re: Do we need more energy in this country

    I think it was the Saudi oil guy that said with todays supply and demand that the price of oil should be about $70 a barrel not $140. The difference here is greed at the stock market. It is already starting to drop and my bet by election day it will be back down to that $70 price. That is unless a butterfly farts in the far east.

    River
    He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security.

    Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays instead of serving you if he sacrifices it to your opinion.
    Edmund Burke

  15. #15
    Blaise
    Guest

    Re: Do we need more energy in this country

    I keep hearing or reading that figure. I don't know what the decline of the dollar has played in what we have paid. When you do not get a return on your investments, you look for better returns with ohter investments. We have waged a war on a credit card. The interest has been high.

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