Due to requests, chemical castration protocal with optional levels of feminizing

[Tclosetgirl]

I did the sublinqual, and while you do swallow your saliva, it seemed to work better - more potent. I went DOWN from 4mg to 2mg per day when doing this.

I am on black cohosh and Saw Palmetto right now, 7 days and my breasts re-inflated to my HRT level - FULL A cup right now.
Should be interesting, T levels are down where i like them without being un-usable
Saw Palmetto seems to work fast in me, also seems to wear off as fast, 7-10 days give or take.

The cohosh combination may or may not have much to do with it, I put 5lbs back on and I swear 2 of them went to my breasts.
We shall see...

[DonFL]

unfortunately the vast majority are not sensitive enough to estrogen for plant estrogens to be effictive in most males.

Estradiol Valerate, or Progynon Depot, has a half life of 6-8 days, similar to testosterone-cyp. If it can be tolerated, weekly injections are becoming recommended to keep swing minimum, dosage should be tailored to the patients tolerance. I have a deep distrust of any oral estrogen because i have seen first hand a liver destroyed by them in one of my classes, so that may have biased and influenced my treatment prefrences. Orals also cause upto a 3 fold increase in clotting factors found in the blood, espicaly Premarin.

A commonly held theory is that the body has a finite amount of estrogen receptors, which can become overloaded with any one type of estrogen resulting in no further development. Often it is of value to alter the regime by changing estrogens to prevent receptor overload.

Prostate cancer patients who elect estrogen based suppression are normally dosed with 40-70mg of Estradiol Valerate bi-weekly, and i ha vent found any papers yet that have indicated any severe secondary health effects from it. Since Lupron Depot, however, this form of suppression is dropping in popularity and we may not see much more research on the subject.

[plix]

unfortunately the vast majority are not sensitive enough to estrogen for plant estrogens to be effictive in most males.

Estradiol Valerate, or Progynon Depot, has a half life of 6-8 days, similar to testosterone-cyp. If it can be tolerated, weekly injections are becoming recommended to keep swing minimum, dosage should be tailored to the patients tolerance. I have a deep distrust of any oral estrogen because i have seen first hand a liver destroyed by them in one of my classes, so that may have biased and influenced my treatment prefrences. Orals also cause upto a 3 fold increase in clotting factors found in the blood, espicaly Premarin.

A commonly held theory is that the body has a finite amount of estrogen receptors, which can become overloaded with any one type of estrogen resulting in no further development. Often it is of value to alter the regime by changing estrogens to prevent receptor overload.

Prostate cancer patients who elect estrogen based suppression are normally dosed with 40-70mg of Estradiol Valerate bi-weekly, and i ha vent found any papers yet that have indicated any severe secondary health effects from it. Since Lupron Depot, however, this form of suppression is dropping in popularity and we may not see much more research on the subject.

In the United States, Estradiol Valerate is sold under the name Delestrogen. Weekly injections are much more stable than bi-weekly, but will still be quite unstable compared to a daily delivery method. Some cannot mentally handle any fluctuations in levels.

I'd be very interested in hearing about cases of liver damage that meet the following conditions:

- 17-beta estradiol (not valerate, premarin, or ethynil estradiol) is what was used and is the only factor that caused the damage
- The doses taken were within the "normal" range of what is commonly accepted for feminization (up to 8 mg daily)
- The pills were dissolved under the tongue, not swallowed (I'd also accept cases where the pills were swallowed so long as the other three criteria are met)
- There was no pre-existing hepatic impairment

I am sure there are cases out there that meet these criteria, I just have not come across them yet (but would love to for my own research).

I have heard the receptor overload theory, and while it has not been proven, it does make sense. But in my case I am not so interested in feminization as I am in maintaining health and the mental effects of estrogen, so I am not too concerned about it.

I suppose one could argue that during the normal female puberty levels vary widely every month, and that it is likely that these are the conditions under which feminization is meant to take place. However, you have to balance that out against how much variation in levels you can handle. Some people are extremely susceptible to variation, while others do not notice it at all.

Keep in mind there are other methods that are available for estrogen use, such as patches and gels. Both of these are considered as safe if not more so than injections.

[DonFL]

yes! gels and patches are extremely safe, just more expensive!

I got to check my old notebooks for the exact parameters around the liver case we examined, but i believe it was from a trans-woman who was ingesting 12mg estrogen orally, not sublingualy. Im starting to see how my education caused treatment bias, and not all size fits all!

[ramses]

Oxytocin is what triggers the let down as well as labor. It's recently been found to be essential to mens sexual health.

thanks plix, i have heard from doctors who recommend anywhere between 20 to 70mg of depot estrogen, 40mg creates a "late-puberty" level of estrogen which causes more rapid feminizing. The dosages of corse should be tailored to the persons tolerance and needs.

Prolactin raising is something that was discussed in some of my classes, ive also read a few protocols that this was used in. Prolactin, of coarse, causes tissue growth in preparation of lactation, and then starts it. Unless one is pumping it wont let down and start production at significant levels.

There are about as many protocols as there are doctors, this more or less is an average of what i have witnessed.

Humm... I might add my current regimen im going under, Eunuch 2 Male.. lol..

[DonFL]

Oxytocin is what triggers the let down as well as labor. It's recently been found to be essential to mens sexual health.

Happen to know of an online source? I didn't include it because I cant find it at all at an online store, didn't want to frustrate people in search of something that they cant get. It can be stimulated if a person really wants to lactate by pumping 4x a day, but chemical help is always nice.

Its also a thought to be an emotional bonding agent, wireing the brain for a mother to bond with a child and partner more closely after birth, doesnt always work because of the sterile manor we treat delivery and separate everyone right after birth, however.

I wonder what would happen, say, if both a man and a woman took a large dose after marrage during their honeymoone together...

I found a few companys that sell "trust spray" I wonder if it works at all and they are using pharmacutical Oxytocin or some plant extract with iffy propterys.. I cant find the spray designed for let-down, Pitocin, anywhere online.

[nullowant]

I get several emails about this since my education is rather known here, now understand im not licensed and this is not professional advice but im making this post so i can just refer people to it in the future for reference. Most of the info is just from other protocols with my own tweaks. If anyone wants to add comments, feel free.

To lower DHT:
5mg Finasteride 1x day
(blocks "male hormone" dht which causes MPB and prostate enlargement, also secondary male sexual features)

To Lower Testosterone:
50mg 2x Day Androcur (Cyproterone acetate) also known as Cyproterone and Siterone

To Feminize:
20mg-40mg Bi Weekly Progynon Depot Deep IM Injection, must be dosed per the individual person. Blood tests indicating E levels should be dont to assure you do not exceed maximum safe levels. Average dose for a fit individual is 20mg bi-weekly.
150mg Monthly Depo-Provera
2mg Daily Estrofem sublingualy (only if needed for constant feed of E from the up/down cycle of the injected Progynon Depot estrogen, estrofem has the lowest emotional liability of all the oral estrogens, if your body is sensitive, you can leave out the oral estrogen. Injected is the safest method of delivery.)


Lactation or rapid breast enlargement: (only to be done when breast development has reached significant levels)
20mg 4x Day Motilium (Domperidone) (may induce lactation, but also increases the hormone prolactin which increases breast growth significantly)

Thanks for the info, I was already doing everything except for the Motilium, which I've added recently. Hopefully it will make my breasts grow even more than they already have.

[DonFL]

great! send me feedback on it in about 2-3 months.

[DonFL]

As i said, the regime im im for E back to M Protocol.

It seems im low on HGH, so that is part of it. My messed up hormones also eventually didn't allow me to reach the final tanner pubertal stage. The mix may or may not allow that. Im noticing alot more hair, growing quicker everywhere, even chest. Gyno is shrinking, muscles are getting better.

If your planning on reverting back to male, or even general health, a HGH test may be worth it, it seems eunuchism has a relational effect of dropping HGH. My doctor has seen this in many prostate and TC patients who have been under eunuchism for a period of time.

125mg Testosterone Cyp Deep Im Weekly - this is the heart of it.


1500mcg rhGH Sub-derm daily (*14mcg per kg is the dosage for calculation, im big, but they caped the dose for now till the next test)
((This might be cycled up for a higher level for a few months to simulate a pubertal surge, if im tolerating the current level with no ill effects. This part is optional any your only going to get it if your hgh is low.))

75mg Zinc / 2mg Copper for e2 control daily.

If your E2 is raised, and zinc cant control it, while controversial, 1/4th tablet of Arimidex every 3 days will or what you require, its usually customized to the patient, is able to get it down without totally nuking it.



Since i was on estrodol for so long, i also have a reversion kit as estrogen's are so addictive i have had a couple of reversion slips, This is basically 1 full Arimidex tablet every other day for 4 days (2 tabs) to clear any estrogen i might take trying to get that feeling it gives back...

I feel great on it, and im rapidly loosing weight. only been a month though. I undergo a new HGH test this month to see of a dosage adjustment is required. My original test showed i was only in 12% of age norm. My doctor is one of the specialists in HRT for both sex hormones and growth hormones, anti-ageing, etc, and follows protocols set by Dr John Crisler. My weight loss started back up again, im down to 320, another 20# in the last 6 weeks, i started at 415-420 6 months ago, and i have not had any surgery for weight loss or special pills. Im just restricting calorie and fat intake, and correcting my hormones. I had a major long pause on loss using the same diet before proper HGH replacement. I am seriously considering adding Alli, a fat blocker, since my fat intake is near nill anyways its effects should be minimal.

My only problem is loose skin from rapid weight loss, i might go for a tummy tuck if it gets to be a large problem when im at my 230 weight goal.



This use for rhGH is considered an Experimental design program and i had to apply for acceptance. they are being really tight with doling the stuff out. Insurance put up resistance also.

With the rapid weight loss, im regaining my penile stature quickly, fat is exposing more of it flacid and erect. My pubic fat pad feels thiner and looser now. Hair growth is all over, even chest, something i never had, and its quicker too. I dont like pubic hair, and till now havent had much to any, not even stubble, prepubescent smooth. I guess if it gets too annoying, laser removal...

All this has me rather excited, I think i will be much happier when I'm at a healthy weight and possibly finish puberty if the HGH cycling works... lol.. late bloomer at almost 30..!

The nice thing about it this time is there are very nice products on the market to keep my skin looking clear and good, acme is minimal.

Refrence Materals:
Current Best Thoghts on TRT by Dr John Crisler
http://allthingsmale.com/word_docs/TRT.doc

The Testosterone Syndrome: The Critical Factor for Energy, Health, and Sexuality--Reversing the Male Menopause
http://www.amazon.com/Testosterone-S...6617004&sr=8-1

[Danya]

As always, mismatched, you provide great information here. Congratulations on the weight loss. I read 'Current Best Thoughts on TRT' at the link you provided. Very interesting article that brings up a concern for me. I'll probably need to start another thread if I want to address this in detail. Crisler states that '... TRT program unless they feel noticeably better, irrespective of the less obvious long term improvements in CV health, bone density, decreased risk of dementia and cancer, etc'. I feel great having been on Androcur for over a month. Actually, and perhaps pecurliarly, more energetic than I felt before. That is ,perhaps, mostly due to my improved mental state on Androcur. I'm concerned, though, by Crisler's observation on the relationship between low T and dementia. A eunuch gender identity seems to fit who I am but I don't want to go there if I'm significantly increasing my risk of dementia. For some reason, I don't find the prospect of being a demented eunuch that attractive :-) I need to look into this very carefully.

[Tclosetgirl]

That's good info Mismatched.

I too agree that the E! is addicting, I had gone back on my last 2 week supply of Androcur, split the pills in half so I had a month's worth - and being that I had a 3 month supply of E left I went back on a 2mg daily dose of E..

Breasts are full again, but getting wider for my frame, actually starting to look feminine beyond just HAVING them. I'm past the point of no return.

But the T is coming back, erections are back although not as s trong now, in a couple weeks they will be. Seems the E holds it back somewhat because the last time I was free and clear of either pill they came back very strong...

Just enjoying it, seems to keep my mood in check and that is why it's addicting to me....

[mrt]

I'm not a doctor but mine felt that some of what is seen in "Current Best Thoghts on TRT by Dr John Crisler" should be pondered before tried. Some of the drugs he uses for example and the length of time he puts people on them could be a health concern.

I know many athletes who use illegal steroids use Arimidex (A women's Cancer drug) to dial down E2 but there are no studies that we could find for it being used in men (at all) and none for the purpose that Dr C states. Is it safe is a serious question.

And I think Dr Crisler has a background in Athletic meds?

Clomid, HCG to plump up atrophied testicles in Hypogonadial men. The use of these drugs for more then 6 month shots is questionalable again because there are no long term health studies. 3 Doctors I spoke to said that the question is if this type of use would cause damage to the brain (The part that regulates Hormones) and if so? Is it worth it? To me I would say no.

All this would change if someone would start a real serious study of these off label uses but....

[DonFL]

well the problem is market demand, this is an off label use and the effects are going to have to be treated by the doctors. There is a network of doctors call Life Extension who week with john crissler, I think they might be tracking its effects. Were never getting an on-label drug fro this, we might as well suck it up and take the risk. As someone who can evaluate the risk in a more professional manor, I have concluded the tiny fragment of a dose we use has no were near the side effects of the major cancer patients heavy usage.

The dose of HCG he recommends is pretty low, 500UI, and some all the way down to 275UI for replacement, and 50ui for aesthetic maintenance. the problem is there are too many docs with their feet in the mud not wanting to walk forward.

http://www.allthingsmale.com/word_docs/HCGupdate.doc

One should also recall that there are many doctors who are predujedudes so much about HCG becuase of early abuses they wont use it for anything, even to help kids develop properly, one of its on label uses.

[plix]

Safety is definitely worthy of attention when deciding to take a drug off-label, but if we never took drugs off-label until the safety and effectiveness could be confirmed by controlled studies, then many of us would be sick, dead, or wishing we were dead.

Anecdotal evidence is not equal to scientific evidence, but when there is a lot of it, I give it weight. In this case, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that both arimidex and HCG are effective and, at least in the short-term, safe for males to use. I see no obvious reason why A-dex would cause any long-term safety issues in males that it does not cause in females.

A-dex is used off-label to control E levels in men with high E, and HCG is used to either maintain the size of the balls when on T or encourage them to put out more T themselves. The former HCG use is questionable I think, but when medically indicated I see nothing wrong with the latter.

A-dex is my primary medication of interest of the two because it is the one that would help me most. HCG will give me no benefits as I do not have balls, but I do think it is useful for those on T who do have balls.

Off-label prescribing of medications has been around for a long time, and it is recognized as a legal practice by the FDA. There is only one medication AFAIK that is illegal to prescribe off-label, and that is HGH.

Everyone who is taking T is using an "illegal steroid" - it is just that some of these people have medical reasons and prescriptions. Other subsances that are usually more thought of when the word "steroids" is mentioned are also available by prescription for certain medical indications and therefore just as legal as T when accompained by a prescription. Testosterone is just as much of a "steroid" as any of the others, except that it is primarily androgenic, where most of the others are much more anabolic. But most knowledgeable steroid users will say you always use T as the primary steroid of a cycle, and all I have seen recommend nothing but T for a beginner.

As far as Dr. Crisler goes, he is definitely out there to mostly work with people who have screwed up their systems through steroids. He and most other "anti-aging" doctors mostly work with former steroid users who are basically chemical eunuchs. But they do have some good ideas, and many should be paid attention to by mainstream doctors.

[DonFL]

Great thanks for posting this.
I was going to ask about chemical castration, but you posted this earlier.
As far as I know, androcur is over the counter in Russia, so here is the only remaining question - you listed memory loss in side effects - can you give any more details on this?

sorry but i didn't see this. Often androgen deprivation causes the mind to loose short term memory processing abilities, not totally, just a minor impairment. It is about a 20% side effect rate, meaning it effects about 20% of people on chemical castration. It can be countered if you use estrogen as many of the other side effects.