W on human rights

[Jesus]

Now that the U.S. press and, especially President George W. Bush and other members of his administration, have spent days in condemnation of the human rights record of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, maybe we should look at the recent U.S. record….

George Bush's devotion to human rights

Rick Perlstein

A twisted little hypocrite said this today at the United Nations. Since he's our president, he said it in your and my name:

Sixty years ago, representatives from 16 nations gathered to begin deliberations on a new international bill of rights. The document they produced is called the Universal Declaration of Human Rights -- and it stands as a landmark achievement in the history of human liberty. It opens by recognizing "the inherent dignity" and the "equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family" as "the foundation of freedom, justice, and peace in the world." And as we gather for this 62nd General Assembly, the standards of the Declaration must guide our work in this world.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights? Let's review.

Article 1.

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2.

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status....

Article 3.

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Article 4.

No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

Article 5.

No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Article 6.

Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

Article 7.

All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Article 8.

Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

Article 9.

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

Article 10.

Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

Article 11.

Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.

Article 12.

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation....

**********

Article 14.

Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution....

**********

Article 16.

Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family...

**********

Article 18.

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Article 19.

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Article 20.

Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association...

Article 21.

Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.

Article 22.

Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

Article 23.

...Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work...

Article 24.

Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.

Article 25.

Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family...

Article 26.

Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.

Yes, upholding the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is exactly what the Bush administration is all about.


TomPaine.com
Wednesday, September 26, 2007
http://commonsense.ourfuture.org/geo...an_rights?tx=3

[pierymarc]

Funny how liberals always try to protect the reputations of those that want to destroy the U.S. If you admire Mahmoud Ahmadinejad so much, perhaps Iran is the country you need to be living in. Any American has the right to bitch about the President. That is our birthright. But aiding or giving comfort to avowed enemies of the United States is TREASON. Try reading the Constitution. And remember, your Iranian buddy has sent considerable military assets to Iraq for the express purpose of killing Americans. When you start siding with an enemy, you lose credibility. There are many in this country that live here, but hate our form of government, and democracy in general. You hear many liberals bemoaning "ill treatment" of Iran, Cuba, Venezuela, etc. But not one of them stood up for the 600 Buddhist monks in Myanmar that were arrested for organizing and participating in a pro-democracy rally! Nor are they standing up for the cry for freedom in that country by 100's of thousands of its citizens. Why? Because "liberals" have no interest in democracy whatsoever. Their interest is in socialism. Which is why they cried over the overthrow of old Saddam, a Socialist Dictator. Why do they love socialism so much? Because it is the model that is closest to feudalism. Just replace royalty with bureaucracy and it is the same. Just an elite class and a serf class. No middle class as they are the the enemy of the elite. They take up resources that the elite want for themselves. This is why all of these extremely wealthy hollywood freaks and wierdos are all socialists. They want to be the royalty and all else to be thier serfs. Those that hate democracy should not stay in a democratic republic. They should all go to where they would be happiest and not try to ruin it for those of us that love freedom.

[jemagirl]

Funny how liberals always try to protect the reputations of those that want to destroy the U.S. If you admire Mahmoud Ahmadinejad so much, perhaps Iran is the country you need to be living in.

First of all, I don't find that to be true, and I don't see it any where in Jesuse's post. Rather it seems he is pointing up a certain level of hypocrisy in our government. If I am wrong please feel free to quote the par of his post you feel rises to treason. Here is the part of the post that Jesus wrote.

Now that the U.S. press and, especially President George W. Bush and other members of his administration, have spent days in condemnation of the human rights record of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, maybe we should look at the recent U.S. record….

Secondly he is reposting an article for our perusement. So maybe your BEEF is with the original author. Here's the link.

TomPaine.com
Wednesday, September 26, 2007
http://commonsense.ourfuture.org/geo...an_rights?tx=3

Bye the way, I just checked it out for you, and they have a section for comments, but before you go and do a copy and paste to their website may I suggest that you break down your response into it's component arguments? Rite now it's all jumbled together which makes it difficult to follow your line of logic from premiss to conclusion.

Also if you really want to persuade any one of the superiority of your conservative ideology I would suggest dropping the hyperbole unless of course you are only playing to your fellow "Ditto Heads".

Oh and along that same line you may want to actually read the article and taylor your response to it. I only say that because your diatribe doesn't seem to relate to the article or Jesuse's post.

It would be much more powerful if you would demonstrate where there are formal fallacies of logic in the article you are debating, as opposed to say, the hypocrisy of people in Hollywood. By the way I'm dying to ask, how is Myanmar these days and when did you get back? I must have missed you flipping the channel back and forth between MSNBC and CNN. Which saffron robe were you wearing again? Were you the one standing next to Mel Gibson? I just adore him

[Dave]

Kind of makes you want to go out and defoliate a victory garden, doesn't it?

[Riverwind]

Well Jesus, I think your point is well taken, the first response seems to validate it, thanks to Jema's interpretation of same add even more clarity and the next post puts the period on the finished product.


WELL DONE

To pierymarc,

It does bother me however when the right wing thinks and says that anybody center to left is a traitor. I am wondering if you think all Democrats are Traitors? If so maybe you should look at the current list of Senators, there happens to be one from the Great State of Hawaii, Daniel K Inouye. third longest setting in the Senate and only member who is the original member from that state. I would suggest you look at his record. Lost his arm in WWII in Italy as a 2ed Lt in the US Army, leading his men of the 442ed. He was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor, he is a liberal is he one of the Traitors your talking about?

Thats what I thought.


River

[MacTheWolf]

pierymarc

Treason is plotting the forceful overthrow of the U.S. witnessed by two or more persons.

What Jesus was expressing is called "Freedom of Speech", a right we have from the Bill of Rights of our Constitution.

Criticizing George W, Bush has nothing to do with protecting the reputation of that Iranian presidential asshole.

Bush, by your definition, has committed TREASON, however. He started an unnercessary war which has cost the life of almost 4,000 Americans. He illegally invaded a soverign nation, accused them of having Weapons of Mass Destruction (none were found). He accused them of participation in 9/11 (proven untrue). He accused them of sponsering global terrorism (untrue then by not now)

Thanks to Bush's invasion and continued occupation of Iraq, terrorists in the Middle East have gained strength, greater numbers and more determination to commit terrorist acts against the West.

I'd say President Bush is a war mongering, lying, murderous bastard who violates International Human Rights agreements and commits as many attrocities as Saddam Hussein or this Iranian leader has (whose name I can never remember).

Of course, this is just my opinion as an American.

[pierymarc]

U.S. Constitution, Article III, Section 3:
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.
The congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason, but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood, or forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted.

Article I, section 9: The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.

The Honorable Daniel K Inouye aside, and having had the honor to work for the U.S. Department of Veteran's Affairs for over 15 years, I have known many members of the fighting 442. They are all honorable men that were originally interned by... Oh yes, the Democrats! Are all democrats traitors? Of course not! But some seem to creep extremely close to the edge.
The last time I checked, Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad have not canceled their strategic alliance against the U.S. And, the last time I checked, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is still sending military assets to be used against U.S. service personnel. And, the last time I checked, Nancy Pelosi, Barbara Boxer, Dianne Fienstein, John Kerry and Ted Kennedy have not rescinded their statements that Hugo Chavez was a close, personal, and valued friend of theirs. And, though the news media did ignore it, our troops found over 600 tons of weapons grade uranium over there that was not accounted for by the U.N. inspectors.

When did Bush use nerve agents against 10's of thousands of Kurds? Or are Kurdish lives not as important as Yugoslavian lives?

Let us not forget that John Wilkes Booth, the assassin that shot Abraham Lincoln, was a member of the Democratic Party. As were a multitude of terrorists during the civil war. It seems that they wanted slavery to continue unabated. They were working with the Confederate military and the Canadian government. So the Democratic party has blood on it as well. The Democratic party took us into the Korean War and the Vietnam War. We also went into Somalia and Bosnia under Democratic rule.
I do not agree with everything this president does. I fervently disagree with his ineptness in dealing with boarder security, or with his supposed solutions to the "non-visaed tourist" problem.
On the other hand, the liberals rail against him over his attempt to overhaul the social security system. All I can say is that when the Federal Government switched from the CSRS (Civil Service Retirement System) to FERS (Federal Employee Retirement System) a partially privatized system, the governments retirement went solvent. His social security reform is identical to those changes, and should work.
One more thing... non-uniformed combatants are excluded from the Geneva Convention, something that those being held at Gitmo are and were aware of before they took action against this country. Much as the ACLU tried, the international courts didn't touch it, for that reason. And others are covered by Article I, section 9 of the Constitution, quoted above.

And while I'm on this rant, what about Al Gore. He is smart and educated, and yet the best he can come up with to help the environment is make a movie. What about doing something sensible, like pushing for an increase in the voltage standard. If we changed to a 240V standard as in Europe, we would cut the Amperage used in this country in half. That's a lot of oil. Europe was put on that standard during the Marshall Plan years, being that the generating capacity was shot to hell during WWII.
And both Gore and Bush need to do better that corn based methanol. The carbon footprint is the same as gasoline: The claim- a gallon of methanol has half of the emissions as a gallon of gasoline. The problem- methanol has only half of the energy of gasoline so it takes two gallons of methanol to do the work of one gallon of gasoline. The conclusion? NO DIFFERENCE!! Excuse me, one BIG difference: the corn used to make the the methanol takes away from that used to feed almost all of our livestock, polenta, masa, popcorn, etc., not to mention the acreage not being used to grow other foodstuff, thus driving up food prices. We need to put more emphasis on other energy solutions, such as clean burn diesel, hydrogen fuel cell technology, wind power, solar power, nuclear power, and whatever else our brilliant scientists can come up with.

[MacTheWolf]

Yup, pierymarc hates democrats.

[pierymarc]

And MacTheWolf hates Republicans.

[pierymarc]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070927/ap_on_re_as/myanmar

Funny. Nothing about Mel Gibson dodging bullets.

[Paolo]

Just replace royalty with bureaucracy and it is the same. Just an elite class and a serf class. No middle class as they are the the enemy of the elite. They take up resources that the elite want for themselves.

This sounds oddly familiar to me...
Oh, wait...this is what the Bush Administration has been trying to do - and doing a damn good job of it - since day 1 in office.

If anyone is a traitor to the USA, it's Bush and his buddies for declaring war on the working class and trying (and very much succeeding) in doing just what you state in that quote.

As far as Jesus' post being traitorous, or in support of that Iranian whack-job of a President, I think you should go back and read it again.

Iran is not exactly #1 on the list of Human Rights advocates. The post intends - and does when an intelligent person reads it - to point out the hypocrisy of the Bush Administration in that regard.

When Saddam Hussein gases thousands of Kurds, we all stand up and cry "monster" and suddenly we're out to get him - and someone did! Personally, I don't give a f*ck what some petty dictator does to the people of his own country. Yet when OUR leader sacrifices the lives and future wellbeing of those who survive his quest for oil and money, anyone who speaks up against Lord Bush is labeled "traitor".

Yep, hypocrisy at its best.

Now, much like the war in Iraq - before you go starting a war on an Internet forum, regardless of where and what subject, you should bring a few things:

1. a battle plan.
2. sufficient reasoning for starting your war.
3. proof of your accusations.
4. the means to win it.
5. a plan for graceful withdrawal when you get your ass kicked.

[Paolo]

The problem- methanol has only half of the energy of gasoline so it takes two gallons of methanol to do the work of one gallon of gasoline. The conclusion? NO DIFFERENCE!! Excuse me, one BIG difference: the corn used to make the the methanol takes away from that used to feed almost all of our livestock, polenta, masa, popcorn, etc., not to mention the acreage not being used to grow other foodstuff, thus driving up food prices.

And while we're at it - as far as erroneous data ...

It's "ethanol" - from grain.
Methanol comes from wood, waste, etc. They are not the same.
Ethanol also does not have half the energy of gas. My truck gets 20 mpg highway on gas and 16 on ethanol. A bit over half, granted...but at the price that is set on it at the local station here, I SAVE money on my weekly fuel bill. As far as being the grand solution, no it isn't, granted. But it helps.
Also keep in mind that for many years, a LOT of farm ground here in the Midwest lies fallow - not growing anything but weeds - while the farmers are being paid by the government to NOT farm it.
If the creation of ethanol plants, etc., creates jobs and makes income for farmers in USA - and NOT money for sheiks in the Middle East - then I'm ALL FOR IT. A crutch does not heal a broken leg, but it sure helps the breakee to get around.

Yes, it probably will drive food prices up some. That's typical government greed, because there's plenty of acreage here to grow all the corn and beans you can want. There's no reason it should - but keep in mind, it will. When you start taking money out of the Big Government's pocket, It always finds a way to steal it back.

God forbid that the little man get an even break. Only the wealthy elite, and not the serfs, are entitled to that.

Oh, and besides - I'm diabetic and can't eat most corn products. I could care less if there's a sudden popcorn shortage. Put it in the gas tank.

[jemagirl]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070927/ap_on_re_as/myanmar

Funny. Nothing about Mel Gibson dodging bullets.

Oh yeah? You don't seem to be dodging them bullets your self. The point is you are criticizing the Dems for not doing anything about Maynmar but PLEASE tell *every one here* at the EA what the hell YOU are doing about Myanmar.

Hmmm come to think of it Bush has been in office for the better part of two terms.... may be a better question is what has he done about it? We are not fighting a war over in Myanmar that I am aware of, and the government there is most definitely a brutal dictatorship. Too bad they don't have our oil under there sand so we can go save them by fighting an ill planed ill executed war.

*I say every one because at this point it isn't just the Dems that want Bush to go away. His own party is abandoning him like he's got the plague, and I'd note that Mr. Bush's approval rating is almost as low as yours is.*

[jemagirl]

Let us not forget that John Wilkes Booth, the assassin that shot Abraham Lincoln, was a member of the Democratic Party. As were a multitude of terrorists during the civil war. It seems that they wanted slavery to continue unabated. They were working with the Confederate military and the Canadian government. So the Democratic party has blood on it as well. The Democratic party took us into the Korean War and the Vietnam War. We also went into Somalia and Bosnia under Democratic rule.

Pierymarc,

I just have to hand it to you on this one. Your ability to go from Abraham Lincoln's assassination during the Civil War to Somalia, and all in a debate about George Bush's human rights record. Amazing, simply amazing, and then you don't stop there. No, not you. You tie in Al Gore's movie on global warming, and 220 Volts AC. I never would have guessed those were relevant to the topic being discussed. You crazy Hollywood people are just amazing.

[IEunuch]

And, though the news media did ignore it, our troops found over 600 tons of weapons grade uranium over there that was not accounted for by the U.N. inspectors.

Proof, please.